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Lack of Christian though in threads: Example naked bodies thread

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Flashskeletal

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Although I am referring to many threads in this post, it has direct application to the thread I started on naked bodies on screens.

To me, the most important element in a discussion regarding naked bodies on screen’s (or any other thread) is the role of the Saviors teachings. This is a Christian website, right? If so, why are there so many threads – liked the naked bodies thread that has been closed – where there is a lack of Christian oriented thinking, like referring to scriptures. Likewise, why is there not more intelligent thinking?

To this end, a most surprising element in many posts – including the naked bodies post -- is the absence of people referring to gospel teachings. For example, in the naked bodies post Quirk and Diane are referring and making comparisons to Europeans and Terra sin and Brainwenverchlyr are referring and making comparisons to art. Others are just making self-reference statement – they think nudity is fine because they think nudity is fine, similar to how children and pubescent think, in which answer begins and ends with the self. Is there any room to think and refer to the teachings of Christ at a Christian website? Or, at a minimum, refer to research.

In regard to the closed post on naked bodies, let me provide an example of how thinking based on theology, Saviors teachings, and research might look like.

It seems to me that most Christians religions (e.g., Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, Mormons, Lutherans), and even non-Christian world religions (e.g. Muslims), consistently teach to hold the body sacred and that nudity is problematic because it debunks the sacredness of the body. Further, the Bible is full of teachings to hold bodies and sexual activity as sacred (including the teachings of the Songs of Solomon, which is about the sacredness of expressing love between a husband and wife). I believe strongly in social learning theory – simply, we become what the environment shows us. There are a plethora of studies that underscore that what we watch on screens (movies, TV, Internet) really does affect us and my position is that nudity on screens often teaches us the opposite of holding the body sacred. Rather, its about demonstrating power, or making body comparison, or exploiting others, or making viewers sexually aroused or causing lusting or coveting for certain body images or real-life events. I do not see the outcome of nudity (and sexual oriented activity) on screen as being linked to the message of the Savior. It might be art, but is it art that the Savior, opposed to individual self, approves of?

I agree with Twistedsketch, the older movies had such greater actors. Actors could not hide behind special effects, computer technology or needed nudity or sexual activity to hold peoples attention. Further, it seems that viewers were more advanced thinkers that could engage more imagination into screen viewing.
 

peanutbutter12

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First off, my name is TerraSin. No space.

Now that the important issue has been covered, you make another thread on a closed topic for what exactly? Obviously it was closed for a reason, and at points it was getting out of hand at one point, which was deleted...

But to make a simple reply to your comment, nudity in itself is not wrong and can be seen as beauty and not perversion. God doesn't make it that way, humanity does. So who do you follow in your mind? If you have a problem with nudity, maybe you better take it up with the artist.
 
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Trashionista

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YES! A THREAD ABOUT ME! And my name is spelt correctly in this one!

I'm touched.

Also, I think you're a tad bit obsessed, flash.

Though I find the first half of your name ironically funny. But then again, my mind is in the gutter... or with Europe.

Honestly, why all the threads? Creepy, yo.
 
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Flashskeletal

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Quirck and Terrasin:

My answer is very simply. I opened this thread to have a mature and gospel oriented conversation about something I find problematic in Christian culture – nudity and sexual activity in mainstream society, such as the box office. I was looking for a mature discussion, based on Christian teaching and solid thinking skills. When I first came to this site I thought it was a decent Christian site, but it seem that many conversations about sexuality veer off into rationalizations about nudity and sexual activity or people act like pubescent, where answers begin and end with the self (which is very elementary thinking). The reason I started this post was to ask a question and make a claim – why on a Christian web site dedicated to Christ is there no mention of the teachings of Christ in threads? Instead of focusing on Christ, the conversation veered of to talking about John Holmes, art, and cracking jokes about naked bodies. My point is that the naked bodies post (like many other posts) seem to be a fake Christian front to rationalize sin. That is all I was trying to communicate.

I do have an interest and disinterest relationship with this website. My interest is high in how people rationalize sin – which I find fascinating. To me, its fascinating how someone can justify nudity or watching sex in movies or cyber sex and claim it’s not a sin. On the other hand, I find it’s depressing and sad, and once and a while I find myself frustrated with pop-Christians. I hope this makes sense? Perhaps it is time for me to leave this site.
 
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peanutbutter12

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Granted, I do agree that it got out of hand when the girls cracked the joke about making a list of all the males they wanted to see naked, but let me get this strait...

You're mad because people don't believe what you believe.

That's really what it boils down to. You seem to think that watching nudity in a movie is a sin when, in my opinion, you're as incorrect as incorrect can be. I can look at a naked person and not have lustful thoughts, but instead, appreciate the beauty created by the maker. Maybe the problem lies within yourself and you can't do that, but that makes it your personal sin and struggle, that doesn't mean others are committing sin.

I challenge you to find me one part of the Bible that says looking at a naked person is a sin that doesn't have anything to do with lust.
 
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Trashionista

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Uhhh... any moron who has access to wikipedia would in fact learn that John Holmes was a decent enough actor, was well-endowed, made porn films, and is known for being a casualty of HIV/AIDS.

How is knowing any of this suggest that a person is somehow, un-Christianlike?

Just because a person speaks about nude art doesn't suggest they're masturbating to Playboy and enjoying cybersex on internet chatrooms. You opened a discussion - however, you focus on irrelevant elements and make weak arguments against them. Such as John Holmes & nude art - you have failed to recognize the actual points being made. That pornography films will focus on penis size, and a mainstream film actually won't. There is a difference between a role John Holmes would have been given in an adult film, and what a European actor would be given in an art-house French film. I didn't use the nude art example in the original thread, so I won't argue that one.

Honestly. Stop being so judgemental and taking arguments out of context. Suggesting that we're all hedonistic, porn enthusiasts because we know who John Holmes was is unjust, and only weakens your argument. The fact that I personally, know who John Holmes was says very little about me -except that I can use wikipedia. And I saw Wonderland that one time.

ALSO, ITS Q-U-I-R-K! Not Q-U-I-R-C-K! Thanks.
 
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antiarte

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lol Quirck!

[/thread]

I agree with Twistedsketch, the older movies had such greater actors. Actors could not hide behind special effects, computer technology or needed nudity or sexual activity to hold peoples attention.

Hmm. I'm a huge fan of film noirs from the 40s and 50s. Lots of sensual undertones in those. The so-called femme fatale is very important to the genre. Yes, there was no graphic nudity or sex scenes, but lots of talks about horse races (The Big Sleep reference!). Or just watch Gun Crazy from 1950. Sexyness all around.
 
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Flashskeletal

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Quirk:

I believe I am addressing your posts. In the opening post, and in the thread deleted, I stated that I find it shocking that at a Christian website people (like you) are basing your arguments that nudity is fine on John Holmes, the porno industry, and art. What do the scriptures and modern religious leaders (e.g., Pope) state about this issue? It’s interesting that you are claiming that I’m not addressing your issues when you and Terrasin seem to not be addressing some of the questions I’ve asked. For example, it seems like you and Terrasin know more than the leading Christian leaders – be it Evangelical leaders (e.g., Billy Graham), Catholic leaders (the Pope), or leaders of differing Christian Churches (e.g., Baptists, Mormons, Lutherans). Are you suggesting that you and Terrasin are correct and that the different leaders of prominent Churches – including the Pope – are wrong? Both of you seem to know more that what so many Christian churches teach. Perhaps both of you should start a new nudist type of Christian domination.

My main argument is this: Why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state/write (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures. That is my argument and your reply up to this point is to use a straw man fallacy (this is when an opponent’s position is presented as so extreme that it’s indefensible) – in suggesting that I stated that Christians are masturbating to Playboy and suggesting that all Christians are hedonistic porn enthusiast. I never stated such things – but I guess you are trying to present my writing as extreme so it’s easier to attack. My main question again, which has not been answered is, why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures?

Terrasin:

Your last post is nothing more than an argument ad hominem – one that focuses on the character of a person (me) rather than on the issue being debated. Further, its elementary thinking that is usually used when a person cannot refute an argument of their opponent. The question that was posed in this post was – and I think this is the third or fourth time I am writing this -- why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures? Instead, and without knowing me, you’re suggesting that I have some type of personal weakness and sin relevant to the topic. Focusing on me is a good way to sidestep the question I keep asking -- why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures? Further, in the deleted post I already explained my rationale – there is a plethora of research that underscores that what we watch on screens really affects. The theoretical framework, with a huge amount of research support, is social learning theory. Somehow you missed this point and instead of addressing this issue, you are focusing on some-type of fabricated sin that I have – and you do not even know me.

I really do not have time to engage in elementary types of debates, and I really do not want to interact with a person who makes ridiculous claims about me. But I do want to answer the question you posed in challenging me to find parts of the Bible that suggested nakedness is a sin – I’m not going to sidestep such questions as you have. However, my plan is to not engage in dialogue with you again after my reply – your reply was too elementary and insulting for me to give you my time (although Quirk and I disagree, she has not engaged in character attacks, and I have time for people such as her).

Here is my answer. First, the way you have conceptualized the question rest on binary and low-level thinking. You are looking for a single sentence or paragraph that specifically states that nudity is a sin. There is not a single sentence that stated nudity is a sin, just like you can’t find a single sentence in the Bible where it states that smoking crake cocaine is a sin. However, when you synoptically put together the entire scriptures, you can come up with general themes of conduct. For example, although crake cocaine use is not specifically stated (just like nudity) it’s obvious that it would be a sinful behavior by destroying the sacredness of our bodies.

The same thing can be said about nudity. When I synoptically put the scriptures together, it is obvious that nudity destroys the sacredness of our bodies and is one reason that Adam and Eve are commanded to clothes their bodies.

Many Biblical scholars refer to the Song of Solomon to justify nudity and the public expression of sexual activity (such as nudity in movies being OK). Likewise, there are many Biblical scholars who have underscored how the Song of Solomon is a text that underscores the sacredness of sexual activity, including the wrongness of nudity. Dr. Gaskill (who use to teach religious education at Berkeley – see his book “The Lost Language of Symbolism”) underscores that breasts were a standard symbol for an intimate nonsexual relationship, security and protection (e.g., “Safe on my mothers breast” from Ps 22:9 or “Can a woman forget her nursing child” from Is 49:15) and that the public display of them (such as in movies) decreases the sacredness of breasts. Both Dr. Wilson (see Dictionary of Bible Types) and Dr. Conner (see “Interpreting the Symbols and Types”) also highlight that breasts refer to nurturing and feeding, and again, the public and sexual objectiveness display of breasts renders there sacredness as void. Further, read Proverbs 31:30 – it is explaining the characteristics of a virtuous woman and the second last paragraph states that beauty is vain; instead a virtuous woman should fear and praise God – not display breasts in screens to create sexual arousal in people.

According to the Biblical scholars listed above, and including the writings of Dr. Seeley (from the edited volume “Studies in Scriptures 1 Kings to Malachi “by Dr. Jackson) the Song of Solomon is a song or love poems, which highlights erotic love between a man and a woman. But the erotic love should be private because the private nature of it makes it more sacred. And when more and more skin is on screens, it will affect all people in decreasing the sacredness of nakedness and sex. As such, breasts (and penises) has nothing to do with physical appearance or size and underscores how when in love you see your spouse as beautiful and should have a deep and erotic relationship (and I would add where both people are giving in sexual activity and in the demands of life – not seeing naked sexual parts to make size comparisons – which many TV shows do). Both the man and the woman have eyes of a dove – symbolic for the caring eyes that a husband and wife should have in the sacred and private aspects of sexual activity.


Also, I would add Dr. Thomas Moore’s (Christian scholar) book “The soul of sex” does a great job of explaining why people confuse big sexual organs (including male anatomy) with the potency of vitality to life – meaningful and uplifting life (e.g., women of ancient Greece waving huge wooden phalluses). Building on Dr. Moore’s writings, I think the evil of pornography has added another dimension of associating bigness with power by creating a desire to conquering those with larger sexual organs (physical attraction to women with larger breasts, or those people who are well- endowed shoeing off across or with the same gender). This is what mainstream screens do, they verbally compare penis size in men and visually compare breasts size and image among women. This is why I find Quirk’s reference to john Holmes troubling.

To me, the bottom line is to act as Christ and I can’t see Christ watching screens or art with nudity on it, but I do see Christ as seeing the inner attributes of people.
 
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peanutbutter12

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Terrasin:

Your last post is nothing more than an argument ad hominem – one that focuses on the character of a person (me) rather than on the issue being debated. Further, its elementary thinking that is usually used when a person cannot refute an argument of their opponent. The question that was posed in this post was – and I think this is the third or fourth time I am writing this -- why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures? Instead, and without knowing me, you’re suggesting that I have some type of personal weakness and sin relevant to the topic. Focusing on me is a good way to sidestep the question I keep asking -- why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures? Further, in the deleted post I already explained my rationale – there is a plethora of research that underscores that what we watch on screens really affects. The theoretical framework, with a huge amount of research support, is social learning theory. Somehow you missed this point and instead of addressing this issue, you are focusing on some-type of fabricated sin that I have – and you do not even know me.

I really do not have time to engage in elementary types of debates, and I really do not want to interact with a person who makes ridiculous claims about me. But I do want to answer the question you posed in challenging me to find parts of the Bible that suggested nakedness is a sin – I’m not going to sidestep such questions as you have. However, my plan is to not engage in dialogue with you again after my reply – your reply was too elementary and insulting for me to give you my time (although Quirk and I disagree, she has not engaged in character attacks, and I have time for people such as her).
Gee, for someone who makes a huge rant about not having the time to "engage in elementary types of debates", you certainly took the time to try and indirectly insult me as much as possible.

You also must have some sort of reading problem because not once did I bring up, mention, talk about, discuss, or consider bringing a porn star into the discussion. You sir, are in dire need of a clue and getting your facts strait before you just start blabbing away and insulting everyone you can who doesn't agree with you. I would also like to point out, in my elementary way of thought, that I don't know any porn stars and I find porn to be a grotesque perversion on the beauty of sex.

As for your answer, you've done nothing but post me comments of comments made by specific theologists. Research that people have been arguing about for longer than you and I have been alive, longer than your parents, grandparents, and their grandparents. The Bible is not made up of code that needs to be figured out by someone who spends too much time trying to look beyond something rather than seeing what is right in front of them.

Also, I never once disputed that modesty was what was in question. There are many places that the Bible discusses modesty, but it was always discussed in a way that related to immorality and lust. Again I say: NUDITY ITSELF IS NOT A SIN AND THERE IS NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE THAT SAYS OTHERWISE. I decided to put it in big letters so might actually receive the point I'm trying to drive home here seeing as you've gotten everything else wrong about me and what I have posted in the past.

Point two is that anyone can find anything online by any theologists to back up their own agenda to spout off to anyone who will listen. There are even theologists who say that having homosexual relationships are OK and write long papers about them, such as the ones you've posted, for anyone who is willing to read them. They mean absolute zilch to me. I don't care what Dr. Knowsalotaboutnothing has to say about the Song of Solomon. I've done a lot of study on that book myself, as it's one of my favorite books in the Bible, and discussed my thoughts on it with people whom are very credible sources of information.

I leave you with this: people aren't going to agree with everything you say, just as they don't agree with everything I believe. Deal with it. Agree to disagree and move on.

[SIZE=-1]"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain[/SIZE]
 
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Trashionista

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Quirk:

I believe I am addressing your posts. In the opening post, and in the thread deleted, I stated that I find it shocking that at a Christian website people (like you) are basing your arguments that nudity is fine on John Holmes, the porno industry, and art. What do the scriptures and modern religious leaders (e.g., Pope) state about this issue? It’s interesting that you are claiming that I’m not addressing your issues when you and Terrasin seem to not be addressing some of the questions I’ve asked. For example, it seems like you and Terrasin know more than the leading Christian leaders – be it Evangelical leaders (e.g., Billy Graham), Catholic leaders (the Pope), or leaders of differing Christian Churches (e.g., Baptists, Mormons, Lutherans). Are you suggesting that you and Terrasin are correct and that the different leaders of prominent Churches – including the Pope – are wrong? Both of you seem to know more that what so many Christian churches teach. Perhaps both of you should start a new nudist type of Christian domination.

My main argument is this: Why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state/write (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures. That is my argument and your reply up to this point is to use a straw man fallacy (this is when an opponent’s position is presented as so extreme that it’s indefensible) – in suggesting that I stated that Christians are masturbating to Playboy and suggesting that all Christians are hedonistic porn enthusiast. I never stated such things – but I guess you are trying to present my writing as extreme so it’s easier to attack. My main question again, which has not been answered is, why at a Christian website when a topic on nudity in films is brought up are you referencing a porn star? Why art? Why not what modern Church leaders state (who have studied the scriptures and history of the Bible for years) or the scriptures?

The reason I brought up John Holmes was to underscore that fact that a pornography film will focus on tha fact that he was well-endowed.

Put... I don't know, Tom Cruise in a role that requires male nudity, and the focus will not be on size.

That was the point I was trying to make - and I believe, in the previous thread, everyone else could see that. It was a response to your flaccid penis comparison comment.

Also, the general consensus is that John Holmes didn't contract HIV from porn films. As the point I mentioned was that he was a casuality of HIV/AIDS, not of the pornography industry.

Am I saying its an industry that I would hope my future son or daughter would work in? No. I don't think its a healthy industry to work in - but providing its consenting adults, and doesn't involve minors or animals, its not something that I'll spend time rallying against. An adult film star makes the choice to have sex on camera, I have the choice to watch or not watch. As anyone does.
 
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