labeled legalist

[CaptainToad]

Nothing to be forgiven about. This is how we need to address what the bible, God's Word, has to teach us. I as a parent looked at how I wanted to raise my children. The best that I could do for them. My father was not and still not a bible reader or Christian. yet he raised me with certain principal which I applied with my children. To him they were good sound and morally correct, and so to me. I wont be surprise that my children wont do the same with theirs. Dont get me wrong, I bought my son fighting video games and played them with him. My son today is not into them because at a certain time, when it was proper to do, I removed the game unit from our home.
He is 26 today, and when ever we have a chance to hang out and run across Street Fighter, we go at it just like when he was a child. There many things that shouldnt be done so we shouldnt ever do it. I have been blessed with that relationship with the Lord to know what and when. I remember when I first got to church. AS I mentioned before, a 5 and 7 years old. I kept them next to me at all times. it was all no, no. you stay there with me. One they the Lord spoke to me: "they will hate the building". I then allowed them to sit with their friends in church.
to my children to know that they were going to church on Saturday, it meant the world. they were going to see their friends. As they got older they began to understand the meaning of Sabbath. I never forced a relationship with the Lord to my children. I would argued academics but never religion with them. They develop their own relationship with the Lord on their time and my testimony as an example. For instance, when my daughter was asked to work on Sabbath, in a SDA university, she told her superior, "I dont work on Sabbath" and left the job.
With a good foundation, we can make the right decision when the time comes.

Good to hear everything worked out nicely for your kids. Making the right decisions can make all the difference in the world.

 

[love2obey]

Good to hear everything worked out nicely for your kids. Making the right decisions can make all the difference in the world.

Like a rebellious child, we tend to act towards God's Word. It is all a matter of love. We forget that is the key to all and any relationship. When our church leaders forget that is the key, they loose focus. From the moment that God started to create all that He has created, we can see the love that He has for Himself and His creation.
When we study the Bible with God's true character in mind, the Holy Spirit will guide us with the truth to the truth. Most of us lack humility and mercy as we bring the Word alive. Therefore, we make a lot of mistake, which then leads to a lot of problems. My father loved me so he did right for me. How much better will I do for my children with God's love in me to guide me? Beside loving my father, I also respect my father dearly since he has been that upstanding person in the eyes of his peers as well. Do we as parent have that testimony? Have we truly appreciated Jesus Christ's testimony?

Blessings

 

[Dave-W]

For instance, when my daughter was asked to work on Sabbath, in a SDA university, she told her superior, "I dont work on Sabbath" and left the job.

At an SDA uni? Really? Which one?

Beyond that, EOC** rules from the Dept of Labor state that all businesses private or public with more than a certain number of people have to make "reasonable accommodation" for employees in their jobs if something becomes a "hardship" in the areas of race, religion, gender, nationality, physical handicap, etc. Not scheduling her on Shabbat is a "reasonable accommodation." To not do that, they are in violation of federal work place rules.


** Equal Opportunity Commission

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Great points made by all.... we are the seed planters, by our words and actions and the Holy Spirit is the one to convict, not us. How hard it is for us (me anyway) to not have an opinion on behaviour and speak it instead of letting the Spirit move. That being said, there is a time and place for rebuking and reproofing but even that should be done in love meekness and humility.

 

[love2obey]

Great points made by all.... we are the seed planters, by our words and actions and the Holy Spirit is the one to convict, not us. How hard it is for us (me anyway) to not have an opinion on behaviour and speak it instead of letting the Spirit move. That being said, there is a time and place for rebuking and reproofing but even that should be done in love meekness and humility.

Amen,

 

[Light of the East]

Try being a Messianic .....

But I have to disagree, at least as far as the Pentecostals and Baptists are considered. They are some of the worst legalists going. And most of the rest of the church world knows it. Compared to the United Pentecostal and Fundy Baptists, even the most conservative SDA congregation would be considered "relaxed."

Having been a Funday (Bob Jones variety) Baptist for 12 years, I can only laugh in agreement.

 

[BobRyan]

In my years studying the bible, believing and following Christ, there is always a word that is labeled on a person who dearly believes in the bible as a whole as it is written. And that label is LEGALIST. Now the thing that gets my attention the most is that usually the person that is doing the labeling is someone that is not willing to live by the law, all that God has to teach us with the bible as it is written. They are always looking for a way around the truth, that loophole so they can continue being themselves as they like it.

I do agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to tell someone the truth but still it is the truth no matter what. Therefore, are we to stop believing and preaching the truth just because those that are not willing to accept it get upset with us and call us name?

Good point. The most common definition of "legalist" is -- "Someone who thinks the Bible matters on some point that you prefer to ignore". It gets handed around with that unspoken but well-understood definition quite a bit.

 

[love2obey]

Its not that simple.

Very often I encountered an approach within the SDA that keeping the commandments is love. If you love someone you are not gonna steal from him. While that might be true, I think you are not gonna necessarily steal from someone you dont love. Jesus gave us two commandments of love - I guess He did so because He realized there is a lack of love among the people, even though they were keepers of law (and very much so I guess).

I think SDAs got that label because they put the commandments first and cannot see beyond that. I am not judging anyone here, not saying all SDAs are the same - its just my observation and experience.
The commandments and all other imposed rules become the essence of the faith, the standard by which to judge and be judged (remember that funny spot about that SDA warning system? )

I am not saying I am right and somebody is wrong - but Love is the most important aspect of the faith. And this is where the SDA is clearly lacking - SDAs even use the letter to the seventh church to justify its current state. Which means, everyone becoming an SDA is entering a church without faith and love. Could be quite a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now, if you dont have faith and love, and start preaching the law to people, who actually might have faith and love, then I guess you will be labelled a legalist. But thats just my theory.

when it comes to the law, the best way to understand it and apply it is by truly being in love with God and its creation.
If we have not being able to learn to love, understand the true mean of what love is, we cant understand the 10 commandments and its purpose. And to know what love is, one has to have a genuine relationship with Jesus and many of our church members dont. Yet being in the church does not mean that they are wrong. One day they will get it as many of us have.
the law was giving as gift of love from God to us as a bridge to unite the lost and not to labeled the sinners.

 

[CaptainToad]

when it comes to the law, the best way to understand it and apply it is by truly being in love with God and its creation.
If we have not being able to learn to love, understand the true mean of what love is, we cant understand the 10 commandments and its purpose. And to know what love is, one has to have a genuine relationship with Jesus and many of our church members dont. Yet being in the church does not mean that they are wrong. One day they will get it as many of us have.
the law was giving as gift of love from God to us as a bridge to unite the lost and not to labeled the sinners.

That sounds very nice!

I just wonder if this definition is truly sound. Its more in line what SDAs say it could theoretically be.

The thing is, love is something more IMHO. When Jesus was around in physical body - I think the pharisees clearly understood what keeping the law is - and I think they went much further, and yet, they crucified HIM.

Based on experience, I think the SDAs put the law first, and love second - what is more in order to get to the second they have to be perfect in the first and seldom get to the second. Thats just my human, subjective, observation.
SDA proof, however, is against them. And against any theory of love in the sense of keeping the ten commandments. SDAs claim they are the seventh church of revelation which lacks love and faith.

How can they lack love if they keep the full ten commandments?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

That sounds very nice!

I just wonder if this definition is truly sound. Its more in line what SDAs say it could theoretically be.

The thing is, love is something more IMHO. When Jesus was around in physical body - I think the pharisees clearly understood what keeping the law is - and I think they went much further, and yet, they crucified HIM.

Based on experience, I think the SDAs put the law first, and love second - what is more in order to get to the second they have to be perfect in the first and seldom get to the second. Thats just my human, subjective, observation.
SDA proof, however, is against them. And against any theory of love in the sense of keeping the ten commandments. SDAs claim they are the seventh church of revelation which lacks love and faith.

How can they lack love if they keep the full ten commandments?

Remember that only a remnant are saved... sister White speaks about nominal Adventists (as you described, being void of the love the Commandments are meant to bring) being the majority and not seeing eternity. This is not a" my group vs your group" to see who gonna make it... there will be God's faithful people from all groups that will make up the redeemed.... that being said, Bible truth is Bible truth and no one has been blessed with a better understanding of scripture than the Adventist movement. Notice I didn't say denomination but the movement that it was supposed to be, the pioneer understanding that God revealed.

 

[1John2:4]

In my years studying the bible, believing and following Christ, there is always a word that is labeled on a person who dearly believes in the bible as a whole as it is written. And that label is LEGALIST. Now the thing that gets my attention the most is that usually the person that is doing the labeling is someone that is not willing to live by the law, all that God has to teach us with the bible as it is written. They are always looking for a way around the truth, that loophole so they can continue being themselves as they like it.

I do agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to tell someone the truth but still it is the truth no matter what. Therefore, are we to stop believing and preaching the truth just because those that are not willing to accept it get upset with us and call us name?

Hey can I hang out with you guys on this? I was really hurt by people in the Baptist Church when I wanted to start keeping Sabbath. Just a real short testimony. I was raised SDA by my grandma even baptised in the SDA church, however my parents did not attend fellowship. I knew truth yet married a wonderful man (I am a woman don't let the name on here fool you, I chose it as a warning). Anyway back to the point. We choose Baptist because well he chose it. I learned a lot and met some wonderful people in the Baptist Church. When I told my small group leader I was convicted and wanted to start keeping Sabbath he called me a legalist and the next week he began a study of the book of Galatians. I argued my case with him, providing scripture to state my case. He told the JR and SR pastor of he church I was a trouble maker and a legalist and had me removed. My husband remains angry at me because he had friends in the church and say I humiliated him. I keep my Sabbath's in secret so I don't cause a fight. My mother is Jewish so sometimes I hang out with her on Shabbat other than that you guys are like my fellowship. Hey thanks Shabbat Shalom this evening!!!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Hey can I hang out with you guys on this? I was really hurt by people in the Baptist Church when I wanted to start keeping Sabbath. Just a real short testimony. I was raised SDA by my grandma even baptised in the SDA church, however my parents did not attend fellowship. I knew truth yet married a wonderful man (I am a woman don't let the name on here fool you, I chose it as a warning). Anyway back to the point. We choose Baptist because well he chose it. I learned a lot and met some wonderful people in the Baptist Church. When I told my small group leader I was convicted and wanted to start keeping Sabbath he called me a legalist and the next week he began a study of the book of Galatians. I argued my case with him, providing scripture to state my case. He told the JR and SR pastor of he church I was a trouble maker and a legalist and had me removed. My husband remains angry at me because he had friends in the church and say I humiliated him. I keep my Sabbath's in secret so I don't cause a fight. My mother is Jewish so sometimes I hang out with her on Shabbat other than that you guys are like my fellowship. Hey thanks Shabbat Shalom this evening!!!

I will keep you in prayer sister...

I am surprised that your husband would be more worried about his standing in the church than your position, especially in light of the fact you can show him Biblically the Sabbath to be still required of us to honour. I do respect your decision to honour your husband but I would pray on pleasing him and 'secretly' honouring God. I give you this verse in love to consider...
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

when it comes to the law, the best way to understand it and apply it is by truly being in love with God and its creation.
If we have not being able to learn to love, understand the true mean of what love is, we cant understand the 10 commandments and its purpose. And to know what love is, one has to have a genuine relationship with Jesus and many of our church members dont. Yet being in the church does not mean that they are wrong. One day they will get it as many of us have.
the law was giving as gift of love from God to us as a bridge to unite the lost and not to labeled the sinners.

Love is indeed the key to unlocking our understanding of the Bible...

 

[1John2:4]

I will keep you in prayer sister...

I am surprised that your husband would be more worried about his standing in the church than your position, especially in light of the fact you can show him Biblically the Sabbath to be still required of us to honour. I do respect your decision to honour your husband but I would pray on pleasing him and 'secretly' honouring God. I give you this verse in love to consider...
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Thank you so much, I guess its what it means for Him to bring a double edge sword, I will rejoice. Thanks for keeping me in your prayers!!

 

[BelleC]

That sounds very nice!

I just wonder if this definition is truly sound. Its more in line what SDAs say it could theoretically be.

The thing is, love is something more IMHO. When Jesus was around in physical body - I think the pharisees clearly understood what keeping the law is - and I think they went much further, and yet, they crucified HIM.

Based on experience, I think the SDAs put the law first, and love second - what is more in order to get to the second they have to be perfect in the first and seldom get to the second. Thats just my human, subjective, observation.
SDA proof, however, is against them. And against any theory of love in the sense of keeping the ten commandments. SDAs claim they are the seventh church of revelation which lacks love and faith.

How can they lack love if they keep the full ten commandments?

Hi all, former SDA here. I think Jesus came and showed that the Law was the barest minimum we could do to show our love for God and our fellow mankind. The problem of the Pharisees was not legalism, as it is often assumed, but rather hypocrisy. They appeared to keep the law outwardly but were just as crooked as anyone else, lying, committing adultery, coveting, etc. But they made a big show by tithing herbs, praying loudly, making themselves obvious when fasting, and generally looking very religious.

Unfortunately my personal experience matches up with your statement concerning a lack of love. Some members are very warm in church but none of the SDA churches in my area have much going in terms of outreach, feeding the hungry, etc. When my mom (she was SDA) was dying of cancer 1 member took the time to visit but spent most of the time trying to convert visiting family. It was very off putting. In contrast, the local Catholic priest showed up multiple times after my step-father, a very lapsed Catholic, indicated there was a need of prayer. He came just talked to her, asked to pray with her, and was generally supportive. The SDA pastor never showed up. Very sad.

 

[1John2:4]

Have UOTE="CaptainToad, post: 69666200, member: 373854"]Wow, I didnt know that!
So what exactly makes them such tought legalists? Could you provide some examples? I cant really imagine anyone being more legalist than the SDA but then I dont know too much about the other congregations mentioned.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever watched or read John McArthur?

 

[1John2:4]

That sounds very nice!

I just wonder if this definition is truly sound. Its more in line what SDAs say it could theoretically be.

The thing is, love is something more IMHO. When Jesus was around in physical body - I think the pharisees clearly understood what keeping the law is - and I think they went much further, and yet, they crucified HIM.

Based on experience, I think the SDAs put the law first, and love second - what is more in order to get to the second they have to be perfect in the first and seldom get to the second. Thats just my human, subjective, observation.
SDA proof, however, is against them. And against any theory of love in the sense of keeping the ten commandments. SDAs claim they are the seventh church of revelation which lacks love and faith.

How can they lack love if they keep the full ten commandments?

But if you read the Gospels you find Yeshua is rebuking the Pharisees for being hypocrites and adding man made traditions to the law. They were guilty of turning the law into a burden by adding a bunch of man made traditions. He did not rebuke them for keeping the law too much.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Hi all, former SDA here. I think Jesus came and showed that the Law was the barest minimum we could do to show our love for God and our fellow mankind. The problem of the Pharisees was not legalism, as it is often assumed, but rather hypocrisy. They appeared to keep the law outwardly but were just as crooked as anyone else, lying, committing adultery, coveting, etc. But they made a big show by tithing herbs, praying loudly, making themselves obvious when fasting, and generally looking very religious.

Unfortunately my personal experience matches up with your statement concerning a lack of love. Some members are very warm in church but none of the SDA churches in my area have much going in terms of outreach, feeding the hungry, etc. When my mom (she was SDA) was dying of cancer 1 member took the time to visit but spent most of the time trying to convert visiting family. It was very off putting. In contrast, the local Catholic priest showed up multiple times after my step-father, a very lapsed Catholic, indicated there was a need of prayer. He came just talked to her, asked to pray with her, and was generally supportive. The SDA pastor never showed up. Very sad.

Thank you all for your testimonies... it's sad that modern Israel has followed the same path as ancient Israel.

My wife and I never found much love from the SDA's from our local churches or even when attending the camp meetings (my wife was diagnosed with incurable cancer while we were attending a local conference church)... Ellen White was right about the 'nominal Adventists' which sadly seem to make up the majority now. We need to pray for them that they receive of the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Thank you so much, I guess its what it means for Him to bring a double edge sword, I will rejoice. Thanks for keeping me in your prayers!!

I thought of your situation while reading our devotional for today... I hope this encourages you in your trial.

Day 22 - God's Heroes



How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. 1 Kings 18:21. {CC 209.1}



Elijah, amid the general apostasy, did not seek to hide the fact that he served the God of heaven. Baal's prophets numbered four hundred and fifty, his priests, four hundred, and his worshipers were thousands; yet Elijah did not try to make it appear that he was on the popular side. He grandly stood alone. . . . With clear, trumpet like tones Elijah addressed the vast multitude: "How long halt ye between two opinions? . . ." . . . Where are the Elijahs of today? {CC 209.2}

God would have His honor exalted before men as supreme, and His counsels confirmed in the eyes of the people. The witness of the prophet Elijah on Mount Carmel gives the example of one who stood wholly for God and His work in the earth. . . . "Let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel," he prays, "and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. Hear me, O Lord," he pleads, "hear me." . . . {CC 209.3}

His zeal for God's glory and his deep love for the house of Israel present lessons for the instruction of all who stand today as representatives of God's work in the earth. {CC 209.4}

Nothing is gained by cowardice or by fearing to let it be known that we are God's commandment-keeping people. Hiding our light, as if ashamed of our faith, will result only in disaster. God will leave us to our own weakness. May the Lord forbid that we should refuse to let our light shine forth in any place to which He may call us. If we venture to go forth of ourselves, following our own ideas, our own plans, and leave Jesus behind, we need not expect to gain fortitude, courage, or spiritual strength. God has had moral heroes, and He has them now,--those who are not ashamed of being His peculiar people. Their wills and plans are all subordinate to the law of God. The love of Jesus has led them not to count their lives dear unto themselves. Their work has been to catch the light from the word of God and to let it shine forth in clear, steady rays to the world. "Fidelity to God" is their motto. {CC 209.5}

 

[CaptainToad]

Have UOTE="CaptainToad, post: 69666200, member: 373854"]Wow, I didnt know that!
So what exactly makes them such tought legalists? Could you provide some examples? I cant really imagine anyone being more legalist than the SDA but then I dont know too much about the other congregations mentioned.

Have you ever watched or read John McArthur?[/QUOTE]

No,never. Probably wont ever read it - not too much of a book buff.