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Kurios and Theos in the NT

pw89

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Hey all,

I have often seen the following argumentation:

1. Kurios is used in NT to refer to Jehovah
2. Kurios is used to refer to Jesus as "Lord"
3. The deity of Christ is proven

I have also seen the fact that "God" (Theos) is applied to Jesus in the NT, thus proving the deity of Christ.

However, I have additionally read the argumentation that Kurios has a wide range of meanings and does not necessarily have to mean Jehovah. Also, I have read the argumentation that "Theos" also has a wide range of meanings and applications not necessarily refering to the One and Only God.

This puts me at a standstill; if this is the case, then many of the NT references to Christ as "Kurios" and "Theos"--even possibly the most famous of them: John 20:28--cannot be seen as definitive proof of Christ's deity.

I've searched for people/sites that have addressed this objection (of sorts) in-depth, and that have addressed other of the (in my opinion) "tough/tougher objections" to the Trinity, but have not really been able to find them. (For instance, another potential obstacle in the Trinity in my mind is the difference between God sharing His glory and giving His glory. Also anti-Trinitarians state that they worship Jesus as the Lamb/Savior, and they worship God as God--they claim that Revelations is proof that this is an appropriate distinction to make--is this distinction valid or not?)

Sorry, I digress in the parenthesis/last paragraph there, but if you could help with the "Kurios" and "Theos" bit (or anything else), that would be great.

In Christ,
-pw
 

jckstraw72

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waht i learned was that before the Resurrection they called Christ Kyrios -- as in Master, and after the Resurrection as they started to understand who He was/is, they called Him ho Kyrios -- THE Lord, which can only mean God.
 
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Philip_54b

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Hey all,

I have often seen the following argumentation:

1. Kurios is used in NT to refer to Jehovah
2. Kurios is used to refer to Jesus as "Lord"
3. The deity of Christ is proven

I have also seen the fact that "God" (Theos) is applied to Jesus in the NT, thus proving the deity of Christ.

However, I have additionally read the argumentation that Kurios has a wide range of meanings and does not necessarily have to mean Jehovah. Also, I have read the argumentation that "Theos" also has a wide range of meanings and applications not necessarily refering to the One and Only God.

This puts me at a standstill; if this is the case, then many of the NT references to Christ as "Kurios" and "Theos"--even possibly the most famous of them: John 20:28--cannot be seen as definitive proof of Christ's deity.

I've searched for people/sites that have addressed this objection (of sorts) in-depth, and that have addressed other of the (in my opinion) "tough/tougher objections" to the Trinity, but have not really been able to find them. (For instance, another potential obstacle in the Trinity in my mind is the difference between God sharing His glory and giving His glory. Also anti-Trinitarians state that they worship Jesus as the Lamb/Savior, and they worship God as God--they claim that Revelations is proof that this is an appropriate distinction to make--is this distinction valid or not?)

Sorry, I digress in the parenthesis/last paragraph there, but if you could help with the "Kurios" and "Theos" bit (or anything else), that would be great.

In Christ,
-pw

I recently had a formal debate on this same topic! (unfortunately it's in Persian!)

let's examine the word: "theos" (θεός - Strong's G2316).
This word per se, means God/god. In The Middle Liddell Greek-English Lexicon, "God/god/goddess/divine" is the only given definition for theos:
I. God, Hom., both in general sense, Θεὸς δώσει God will grant, and in particular sense, θεός τις a god; πατὴρ ἀνδρῶν τε θεῶν τε Hom.:—things are said to happen σὺν θεῷ, σύν γε θεοῖσιν by the will of God, id=Hom., etc.; οὐκ ἄνευ θεοῦ, Lat. non sine diis, Od.; οὐκ ἄνευθε θεοῦ Il.; οὐ θεῶν ἄτερ Pind.;— ἐκ θεόφι Il.;— ὑπὲρ θεόν against his will, id=Il.;— κατὰ θεόν τινα, Lat. divinitus, Eur.:—as an oath, πρὸς θεῶν by the gods, in God's name, Trag.; θεὸς ἴστω Soph., etc.
II. θεός as fem. for θεά, θέαινα, a goddess, Hom.; θήλεια θεός Il.; ἡ νερτέρα θ. Proserpine, Soph.; often in oaths, νὴ τὼ θεώ id=Soph.; ναὶ τὼ σιώ, with the Spartans, of Castor and Pollux, Xen.; with the Boeotians, of Amphion and Zethus, id=Xen.
III. as adj. in comp. θεώτερος, more divine, θύραι θ. doors more used by the gods, Od.

the same, also applies to the critical Greek and English concordance of the New Testament and the Homeric Dictionary of Georg Autenrieth.

So (even though theos, may have some exceptions in some special contexts, but) we can be sure that its main and dominant meaning is God/god.

The New Testament uses theos 1340 times. only in one passage (john 10:34-35) it is used in a meaning, other than God. Interestingly, this passage itself, is not originally Greek, but is a quotation from the Hebrew scripture (Psalm 82) so the word we're dealing with here is actually the Hebrew word: elohim , not theos.
(many think that 2Corinth 4:4 is another example, where Satan is called the "god of this Age", but as professor Donald E. Hartley rightly argues, the phrase: "God of this age" most probably designates God, not Satan)


So again we can see that (at least in the NT), theos has the solid meaning "God/god", not as you say a "wide range of meanings and applications"
specially when it comes with definite articles (ho, ton) there is no doubt that it refers to the only true God. (John 20:28; Titus 2:13; 1Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:8 and john 1:18-in papyri#75; all call Jesus God with the greek definite article)


Blessings;
Philip.
 
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NorrinRadd

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I dug up something I had posted online years ago, when I (loosely) maintained a Web page. It's relevant to the Deity of Christ issue. It's long, so I have to post it here in two parts. Please excuse any formatting issues that crop up in the transfer. I'll try to tidy them up if possible.


_________________________________________________

Musings concerning the Trinity and Incarnation, mostly from John's Gospel, Epistles, and Apocalypse.

Some anti-Trinitarians are so uninformed as to claim that the doctrine of the Trinity rests "only" on two verses -- John 1:1, 14. This claim they follow with some supposed expertise on what the "real" Greek says, and a lot of verbal "hand-waving" reminiscent of a college course in theoretical physics. What they generally do not do is consider the verses in the context of the whole of the NT, or even in the local context of John 1, the rest of John's Gospel, and John's other writings.

In what follows, I focus heavily on John's writings, with only minor occasional reference elsewhere in Scripture. This is because one is more likely to find consistency of doctrine and word usage when staying mostly within the bounds of a particular author of Scripture. (Some anti-Trinitarians may be surprised and even disappointed to find I don't rely on 1 John 5:7. The "Trinity-proving" portion is missing from many mss., and does not happen to be included in most of the translations I commonly use.)

A journey through John 1 --
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. So who or what is "the Word"? Is the Word the same "person" as "God," is the Word an entirely separate deity, is the Word an "idea" (the basic meaning of the Greek "logos") in the heart of God, or is there yet another possibility?
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

This does not really clarify matters, especially if translated literally. All it tells us is that "someone" or "something" -- the Greek indicates the same "someone" or "something" as alluded to in 1:1 -- existed alongside God at least from "the begining." "The beginning" most likely refers to Gen. 1:1.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. This tends to confirm the allusion to Gen. 1:1, and says that all was created by "him." Absent some skillful probing into the Greek, it is not possible to tell whether "him" is "God" or "he" from 1:2.Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. We still don't quite know whether we are speaking of "God" or "he," but the references to light and life in a context that has been echoing Gen. 1 implies that at least God the Creator is in view. The references to "light" will soon prove "illuminating" in other ways also.Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. Now we know John (the Baptist) will testify and bear witness to "the light." This will help.

Joh 1:9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. Whatever "the light" was, it was about to enter the world.Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. Finally, we can define some terms. "The Word" would seem to be the same as "the light"; "the light" was about to enter the world, then "the Word" came among us. We also see that "the Word" is apparently "the Son."Joh 1:15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.' ")
Joh 1:16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. This verse does a very good job of showing that the one "with" God is also Himself "God." Unfortunately, not all versions of the Greek support this translation. However, the idea does not by any means rest on this verse alone.Joh 1:19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"
Joh 1:20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
Joh 1:22 So they said to him, "Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"
Joh 1:23 He said, "I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, 'Make straight[6] the way of the Lord,' as the prophet Isaiah said."
Joh 1:24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.)
Joh 1:25 They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
Joh 1:26 John answered them, "I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know,
Joh 1:27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie."
Joh 1:28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Joh 1:30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.'
Joh 1:31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel."
Joh 1:32 And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him.
Joh 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
Joh 1:34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."
Joh 1:35 The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples,
Joh 1:36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God!"
Now we have the "testimony" and "witness" of John. The "light" about which he would testify and bear witness turns out to be Jesus, the Son of God, the Lamb of God. So, unpacking the context, we find that "the Word" is the same as "the light," the same as the creating and life-giving God, and came among us as Jesus Christ.

A similar journey through part of 1 John 1 --
1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the Word of life --
1Jo 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us -- Echoes of John 1: Something from "the beginning," the "Word of life," which was "with" the Father and revealed tangibly to us.1Jo 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jo 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. Another echo from John 1: "God" is "light."
Other points from 1 & 2 John --
To deny that Jesus really came in "flesh" is to follow a spirit not from God (1 John 4:2-3); in fact, it is the spirit of antichrist (2 John 1:7). This reiterates and intensifies John 1:14, and confirms that "the Word" is Jesus Christ.
Some of the clearest declarations come from Jesus Himself in John 8. A few examples (several from NASB, others from NAB, which is more literally accurate in those cases):
Joh 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."
Here Jesus identifies Himself as "light," and refers to "life."
Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
Now Jesus implies He came from, and will return to, somewhere other than "here."
Joh 8:23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
He specifies He is not from "this world," but rather "from above."
Joh 8:24 (NAB) That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins.
This is explicit and emphatic: To refuse to accept that Jesus is "I AM" is to ultimately die in one's sins.
Joh 8:28 (NAB) So Jesus said (to them), When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me.
Again Jesus self-identifies as "I AM." (cf. Mark 14:62; contr. Mark 13:6)
After a discussion with Jewish leaders concerning who is and is not a true "son of Abraham," we find this (again from the NAB) --
Joh 8:52 (So) the Jews said to him, Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.'
Joh 8:53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'
Joh 8:55 You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word.
Joh 8:56 Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad.
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.
(The NAB agrees with the EMTV, UBDV, and Voice in the Wilderness translations in rendering "I AM." This can also be seen to some extent in the NASB, where the expression is often translated "I am He," but the "He" is usually italicized, showing it is not literally present, but inferred by the translators.)
John 8:58 is explicit and emphatic, and clarifies the meaning of "I AM" elsewhere in the chapter. No Jew (the audience to whom He was speaking), nor anyone reasonably familiar with the Old Testament, nor anyone acquainted with Hollywood depictions of the life and exploits of Moses, could possibly miss this clear allusion to Ex. 3:14. Jesus unmistakably identified Himself as YHWH, the God of the Old Testament. The Jews certainly understood His meaning, as the very next verse (8:59) tells us they immediately picked up stones to stone Him; they perceived His words as blasphemy.

Joh 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."

Though not exactly explicit, it is not trivial that Jesus reenacts the events early in Genesis where God breathed life into Adam.
We've seen in John 1 that Jesus is known as the "Lamb of God." There are numerous references to the "Lamb" in the book of Revelation (about 30 occurrences), and with the exception of a few that seem to refer to a pretender, they clearly refer to Jesus.

...
 
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NorrinRadd

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...

Other items from Revelation:
"first and last" --
Rev. 1:17 -- The speaker identifies Himself as "First and Last," as "the Living One," as one who "died," yet is alive forevermore (1:18), and is described as "son of man" in 1:13. "Son of man" is a characterization of Jesus in all the Gospels, including John's (see, e.g., John 1:51, 3:13-14, 5:27, and several others). Jesus fits the description of one who died, yet rose to live eternally. "First and Last," of course, could refer to God, Who is the eternal One; further investigation will confirm or refute that possibility.
Rev. 2:8 -- The same celestial speaker again calls Himself "First and Last," and describes Himself as the one who died and came to life. (Jesus of course fits the latter description.)
Rev. 22:13 -- The speaker describes Himself in three-fold Hebraic parallelism as "First and Last," "Alpha and Omega," "Beginning and End." Three verses later, in 22:16, we find explicit evidence that the speaker is "I, Jesus."

"Alpha and Omega" -- These are the first and final letters of the Greek alphabet, so one might infer they represent something along the lines of "beginning and end."
Rev. 1:8 -- The speaker directly identifies Himself as the Almighty, and His self-description as "who was, is, and is to come" indicates His eternality, and may also relate to The Name, "I AM."
Rev. 21:6 -- The speaker identifies Himeself with the Hebrew parallelism "beginning and end," and promises a free draught from the "spring of the water of life." This promise reflects the promise of Jesus in John 4:7-10 and 7:38-39. In the next verse, He identifies Himself as God.
Rev. 22:13 -- As stated in the prior section, we have all three parallel terms, "Alpha and Omega," "First and Last," "Beginning and end," and we see a few verses later that they seem to refer to Jesus.

"eyes of fire" --
Rev. 1:14 -- The speaker, one like a "Son of Man," has flaming eyes
Rev. 2:18 -- It is the Son of God Who has eyes of fire
Rev. 19:12 -- The One with flaming eyes is the Word of God (19:13)
So the Son of God is the Word of God is the Lord God, the Almighty.

"lord of lords" --
Rev. 17:14 -- This identifies "the Lamb," which we know is Jesus, as the "King of kings and Lord of lords."
Rev. 19:16 -- Here we have the Word of God (19:13) as "King of kings and Lord of lords."
In conjunction with Deut. 10:17, these verses clearly identify Jesus as God.

So we have clearly established that John consistently and insistently maintains that Jesus is the Word, Jesus is the one and only God, and Jesus came in (and in fact "became") real flesh. It remains to show that Jesus was distinct from the Father and Spirit, yet all those Persons were and are "God."

There are literally dozens of places in John's writings where he refers to Jesus and the Father as distinct "persons" in some sense, and where he quotes Jesus Himself doing so. A few significant ones from his Gospel follow:
3:35 -- Father "loves" Jesus
5:17 -- Father is working, "and" Jesus is working.
5:19 -- Son does only what He "sees" Father doing.
5:20 -- Father "loves" Jesus
5:21 -- Father raises dead, "so also" the Son gives life
5:22 -- Father does not judge, Son does judge
5:26 -- Father has life in Himself, has "granted" same to the Son
5:36 -- Father gave Jesus works to do, and "sent" Jesus.
6:46 -- Only Jesus has seen the Father
8:16 -- Jesus does not judge "alone," but with the Father
10:15 -- Father and Jesus know each other
10:18 -- Jesus received command from Father
10:30 -- This could be taken to support the idea that Jesus and Father are identical, were it not for 17:11,22. If we understand it to teach that Jesus and Father are literally one Person, then likewise all believers are to become a single person.
12:49-50 -- Father is source of both authority and message of Jesus, and in fact "commanded" Jesus
16:10 -- Jesus will "go to" the Father
16:28 -- Jesus came from the Father, and will soon return to the Father
20:17 -- Jesus will soon ascend to the Father
20:21 -- Jesus sent by the Father
John 11; 12:27, all of 17 -- Jesus prays. When the "addressee" is specified, it is the Father.
It is apparent that Jesus and the Father are in some sense distinct, not a single "Person." In addition, since Jesus prays to the Father, the Father must be God.


Likewise, John has much to say about the relationship -- and distinctions -- between Jesus and the Holy Spirit:
John 1:32-33 -- The Holy Spirit descended "like a dove" in some way visible to John the Baptizer, and remained upon Jesus. (So clearly Jesus and the Spirit were distinct.) Jesus would be the One Who would baptize in the Spirit.
John 3:34 -- Jesus, the One sent by God, spoke God's Words because God gave Him the Spirit in an unlimited way. (cf. Acts 10:38)
John 7:29 -- John refers to Jesus and the Spirit as distinct.
John 14:16-17 -- The "Spirit of Truth" is the "Helper" or "Comforter" (Gk. "Paraclete"). This is "another" Paraclete, implying one such Paraclete was already known to the disciples (cf. 1 John 2:1); one might further infer that the two are of comparable stature, i.e. if one is deity, the other is also. This new Paraclete would be given by the Father in answer to Jesus asking Him.
John 14:26 -- The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit. (Thus, the "Spirit of Truth" is the Holy Spirit, which fact should not have been in doubt.) The Father will send the Spirit, and will send Him "in My (Jesus's) name." (The usual meaning of "in my name" is "on my behalf, as my authorized representative." cf. John 5:43)
John 15:26 -- Jesus will be the One Who "sends" the Paraclete, Spirit of Truth, from the Father. (cf. 1 John 3:24; 4:13)
John 16:13 -- Jesus refers to the Spirit as "He," i.e. as someone apart from Jesus Himself.
There is no reasonable denying that the Spirit is distinct from the Father and Son. (Contrary to the assertions of some who, on the basis of 4:24, claim that the Father and Holy Spirit are identical.)

John refers to both Jesus and the Spirit as "Paraclete." He speaks of believers being "born of God" (John 1:13, 1 John 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18), "children of God" (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1, 2, 10; 4:4; 5:2), and "born of the Spirit" (John 3). In 1 John 4:2, uses the expression "Spirit of God." Though it is perhaps more explicit in the writings of other authors of Scripture, it is clear enough in John's works that the "Holy Spirit" is "God."

So, without need of venturing beyond the Scriptures penned by John (except for a very few helpful confirmations), we find that the Father is God, the Son Jesus is (and always was) God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct Persons. Since He was God "from the beginning," He was God when Moses declared the "Shema" in Deut. 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." Since Jesus spoke approvingly of Moses (e.g. John 3:14; 5:45-46), we may assume He endorsed the Shema. (If we move briefly beyond John's works, to Mark 12:29, we see Him explicitly affirming it as part of the preeminent commandment.)

The conclusion is clear: God is three distinct interacting Persons, and God is One.
 
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