Kosher

[xDenax]

Nope. I am a Catholic really, but I came to believe in the Hebrew Yeshua (not the Greek Jesus) just recently.

Then you ought not be lecturing people, especially Jews, on our laws of kashrut.

 

[yedida]

Being kosher today as a Messianic believer is a matter of being careful "to that", wherever I go to a fast food chain, I always purposely choose only beef products or "clean" fish products, and stay away from pork, shrimp, crab, etc. I always ask the waiter or the service crew first, what are the ingredients of it.

Or when I buy meat from unkosher market, one I get the meat home, my mother always "kosherize it" by pouring salt all over it (salt draws out the blood) and putting it in water and boiling it for a couple minutes

Adonai just wants us to do our best to obey, that's all. We cannot held responsibility to the things we didn't know. This is where the grace of Yeshua comes.

Read Lev 4:14, 23, 28 just to start, to see about the bolded statement. We are held responsible for unknown sin.

 

[yedida]

Then you ought not be lecturing people, especially Jews, on our laws of kashrut.

That's why I asked the question. Didn't want to go blundering in blinded so to speak.

To Patricia: If you've only been a christian for less than 2 years, you really should listen instead of arguing. Most of us have been Christians for decades and have been Messianic for well over 5 years to over 30 years. AND we have religious Jews here as well, THEY of all of us should know what Jewish law is and what the rabbinate has ruled!
There's nothing embarrassing about being wrong (I find myself in that seat quite often). What's embarrassing is when I continue to argue what I think is right with people who know what is the right answer! (Although that is also a very good way to quickly learn humility, I should know!! )

 

[Patricio]

Nobody can watch to see what a chicken eats every moment of every day. I was raised on a small farm and my brother lives there currently, raising chickens. I assure you they will eat dead things. I bet cows occasionally eat dead bugs too.

Like what I said on my previous post, we cannot be responsible to the things we didn't know. And this is where the grace of Yeshua comes.

You are mistaken. This is not the reason rabbit isn't kosher.

Oh yes I know, you will say to me they are unkosher because although they chew the cud, it has no true hoofs, therefore it is unclean for you. Yes I am aware of that, and those description outlined in Leviticus are just a specific and easy-to-understand classification because if Adonai would characterize the unclean animals by the certain disease one might acquire when they eat them, Ancinet Israel would certainly be confused about the terms such as hantavirus, leptospirosis, and salmonella.

 

[Patricio]

Then you ought not be lecturing people, especially Jews, on our laws of kashrut.

First of all guys, I am not lecturing people because I am not a teacher, I am just sharing.

Did I force you to believe me? Nope. And I did not come here to convince you to believe me.

Second, I am entitled to say my own belief so is there a problem with that?

 

[Patricio]

Read Lev 4:14, 23, 28 just to start, to see about the bolded statement. We are held responsible for unknown sin.

So are you saying now that uncleanliness and sin are the same?

Anyway, yeah that was before. Israelites need to sacrifice bulls in order to make atonement but know that Yeshua came, with the one sacrifice of the Messiah, mankind has been absolved and atoned as far as the guilt of sin and the power of sin are concerned. But man should remain obedient to Torah so that the blood of atonement keeps on cleansing him.

 

[yedida]

So are you saying now that uncleanliness and sin are the same?

Anyway, yeah that was before. Israelites need to sacrifice bulls in order to make atonement but know that Yeshua came, with the one sacrifice of the Messiah, mankind has been absolved and atoned as far as the guilt of sin and the power of sin are concerned. But man should remain obedient to Torah so that the blood of atonement keeps on cleansing him.

Don't try to put words into my mouth! The scripture says what it says. And the scriptures I gave you were not about uncleanness, they were about sin. You had made a blanket statement that wasn't correct, so I gave you scriptural references to show you that. The references were to that extent, not to do with clean/unclean.

Yes, you are allowed to say what you believe - but do you want to hold on to wrong ideas? I thought you would want to know the difference between clean/unclean, tame/tahor. If not, you're free to hang on to your wrong impressions.

But you really shouldn't be arguing Judaism with Jews unless you have some really good backup resources for your opinions. Just a little advice.....

 

[Patricio]

That's why I asked the question. Didn't want to go blundering in blinded so to speak.

To Patricia: If you've only been a christian for less than 2 years, you really should listen instead of arguing. Most of us have been Christians for decades and have been Messianic for well over 5 years to over 30 years. AND we have religious Jews here as well, THEY of all of us should know what Jewish law is and what the rabbinate has ruled!

There's nothing embarrassing about being wrong (I find myself in that seat quite often). What's embarrassing is when I continue to argue what I think is right with people who know what is the right answer! (Although that is also a very good way to quickly learn humility, I should know!! )

I've been a Christian since birth but became a true believer of Yeshua for less than 2 years.

I am not arguing, I think we are just stating our views and sharing! Aren't we?

Well believe it or not, I am gleaning from what you are sharing with me, for no matter how different your point is with me right now, I can still learn from you. As the Ruach HaKodesh will guide me, He will reveal to me what is the Absolute Truth.

Yes probably I am still a newbie in this faith but it doesn't mean that I can't say my beliefs and just listen and absorbed all what you are saying. I only have one teacher and that's the Ruach HaKodesh. I do not want to put Adonai "in a box" and try to limit Him to what is said by others.

As my understanding of Adonai grows and expands, WHAT I BELIEVE can also change to match those new understandings just let the Ruach Hakodesh teach my heart and enlighten my mind and don't force me to believe new teachings immediately because I am not forcing you either!

 

[xDenax]

I've been a Christian since birth

That must be the Catholic coming out in you.

 

[Patricio]

Don't try to put words into my mouth! The scripture says what it says. And the scriptures I gave you were not about uncleanness, they were about sin. You had made a blanket statement that wasn't correct, so I gave you scriptural references to show you that. The references were to that extent, not to do with clean/unclean.

I don't know where is your rage is coming from yedida.

Sorry if I said that. But I am just asking. No need to shout.

Yes they are about unintentional sins, disobedience to God. Before, Israelites were obliged to do sacrifices to make atonement for them but not now that Yeshua had come.

Also, there is no sin or uncleanliness acceptable to Adonai, no matter how great or small.

Psalm 24:3-4
Who may ascend the hill of the Adonai?
Who may stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lifted up his soul to falsehood
and not sworn deceitfully.

Yes, you are allowed to say what you believe - but do you want to hold on to wrong ideas? I thought you would want to know the difference between clean/unclean, tame/tahor. If not, you're free to hang on to your wrong impressions.

But you really shouldn't be arguing Judaism with Jews unless you have some really good backup resources for your opinions. Just a little advice.....

WRONG Impressions? How do you said so? Just because it differs from yours so you labeled it wrong. I never said your beliefs were wrong so it is very bullying and unacceptable to say mine was.

I am just sad that some people who had the chance to know the Truth about became so authoritative. I've been lurking around on forums lately and I keep on noticing those people who seem to feel that they have the right to scream and rebuke because they caught they do not agree or comfortable with other's beliefs. No doubt we have an obligation to correct our fellow brethren who are on the wrong path or belief. In fact, this is showing true love and concern for that person. But the Scripture gives us clear instructions for how to do this.

"If we live in the Ruach(Spirit), let us also walk in the Ruach. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another,envying one another." [Gal 5:25-26]

Please always bear in mind that we are in their shoes before. Do not let pride an arrogance get in the way, instead we should become light to our brethren by sharing the instructions of YHVH and let the Torah convicts them.

 

[Patricio]

That must be the Catholic coming out in you.

What do you mean?

 

[yedida]

I don't know where is your rage is coming from yedida.

Sorry if I said that. But I am just asking. No need to shout.

Yes they are about unintentional sins, disobedience to God. Before, Israelites were obliged to do sacrifices to make atonement for them but not now that Yeshua had come.

Also, there is no sin or uncleanliness is acceptable to Adonai, no matter how great or small.

Psalm 24:3-4
Who may ascend the hill of the Adonai?
Who may stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lifted up his soul to falsehood
and not sworn deceitfully.



WRONG Impressions? How do you said so? Just because it differs from yours so you labeled it wrong. I never said your beliefs were wrong so it is very bullying and unacceptable to say mine was.

I am just sad that some people who had the chance to know the Truth about became so authoritative. I've been lurking around on forums lately and I keep on noticing those people who seem to feel that they have the right to scream and rebuke because they caught they do not agree or comfortable with other's beliefs. No doubt we have an obligation to correct our fellow brethren who are on the wrong path or belief. In fact, this is showing true love and concern for that person. But the Scripture gives us clear instructions for how to do this.

"If we live in the Ruach(Spirit), let us also walk in the Ruach. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another,envying one another." [Gal 5:25-26]

Please always bear in mind that we are in their shoes before. Do not let pride an arrogance get in the way, instead we should become light to our brethren by sharing the instructions of YHVH and let the Torah convicts them.

I have not screamed at nor really rebuked you. I simply tried to tell you that the concept of clean/unclean has nothing to do with dirt, filth or germs.It's a concept on a state of "being." But you were the one wanting to argue that point, not me.

And the normal state of yelling at someone in a forum is THIS. ALL CAPS. I didn't yell at you.

 

[Patricio]

Oh my bad... But how you wrote your statement sounds like you are yelling. Probably because of the exclamation point.

Anyway, I can see where you are coming from yedida and I am not arguing, I am just presenting you another point of view where science shows that eating or touching unkosher foods can make one unclean physically through the germs they might acquire.

Adonai love us and His always want to protect us that's why He prohibited us to eat the unclean animals.

Oh for goodness sake, I am being redundant...

 

[yedida]

Oh my bad... But how you wrote your statement sounds like you are yelling. Probably because of the exclamation point.

Anyway, I can see where you are coming from yedida and I am not arguing, I am just presenting you another point of view where science shows that eating or touching unkosher foods can make one unclean physically through the germs they might acquire.

Adonai love us and His always want to protect us that's why He prohibited us to eat the unclean animals.

Oh for goodness sake, I am being redundant...

no problem. just a misunderstanding.
It does turn out that some "unclean" items are actually bad to ingest, but like Dena pointed out, some "clean" animals are actually filthy creatures. We really can't understand just why Hashem chose what He did, we just obey it.
And where humans are concerned, clean/unclean, "mostly" comes from a state of "being." (I'm not including those with tzara'at - that is a state of "being" but it comes out in a person or object physically, which is too much to get into here.)
So let's move on....you for that?

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Ok I have two questions:
1) concerning food laws- is there more to it than Leviticus chapter 11? Because that seems pretty basic and easy honestly.

2) when things/people are referred to as being unclean.... What does this mean? Why does it matter if we are unclean? What are the consequences?

Usually the picture/pattern we see with "unclean" or tamei (just in case you were not aware of the term, this is the Hebrew transliteration for the word, unclean, used in the text)... anyhow, usually the picture is about some form of death. Anything which has the ability to diminish life, is a form of death. Many circumstances of becoming unclean/tamei are natural parts of a human life. For instance, a woman's menstruation means the loss of a potential life, a man's seed going out from him is "life" going out from him, the unclean animals are usually the garbage disposers of the earth - they have a job to do, it's just that their job isn't to be food - their job is to cleanse the earth of filth, which means they come in contact with "death", so to speak. If a human consumes that which is unclean/tamei, that human being is not nourishing (putting life into) the body. A human being who consumes the food prescribed by YHWH, will be putting life into that body. There are many scientific/physiological truths to why the unclean animals are not fit for consumption, though we are not told in the Torah the reason they are to be unclean for us, it is interesting that the "bottom feeders" have a higher concentration of toxins, or that pigs don't sweat, so their bodies are filled with parasites, etc., it is just interesting that YHWH designed the tamei animals to be identifiable to human beings for a reason.

Of course there are many more examples, but, bottomline, YHWH is the G-d of the Living. Death (a figurative picture of sin) cannot exist in His presence. It is either cast far from Him, or is resurrected to Life. So, a mikvah, immersion, is not a once and for all experience, but is prescribed for various times throughout the course of one's life. Water and fire, we are told, are both part of kashrut. Water is living. Fire purifies. It is about Life.

 

[Patricio]

no problem. just a misunderstanding.
It does turn out that some "unclean" items are actually bad to ingest, but like Dena pointed out, some "clean" animals are actually filthy creatures. We really can't understand just why Hashem chose what He did, we just obey it.
And where humans are concerned, clean/unclean, "mostly" comes from a state of "being." (I'm not including those with tzara'at - that is a state of "being" but it comes out in a person or object physically, which is too much to get into here.)
So let's move on....you for that?

Yes it is just a misunderstanding.

 

[ChavaK]

Being kosher today as a Messianic believer is a matter of being careful "to that", wherever I go to a fast food chain, I always purposely choose only beef products or "clean" fish products, and stay away from pork, shrimp, crab, etc. I always ask the waiter or the service crew first, what are the ingredients of it.

Oh you can ask, but it doesn't mean it's "kosher". The staff is not likely to know the exact details of every ingredient of every thing they serve. They may not know something has red dye in it (which unless kosher comes from insects) or that a little bit of lard is used in the cooking process. Or that the scrambled eggs you are eating were cooked on the same grill as the bacon.

But I am also aware that Messianics are not held to the same kosher laws as Jews. And I'm glad to see you follow the biblical laws, as interpreted by Messianics.

 

[Diakoneo10]

Ok since I'm the one that brought the question up... Let me clarify. While I appreciate your input Patricio, I am not looking to start debates or arguments here. I was looking for answers from practicing Kosher Jews and Messianic Jews only. Because I am newly learning the intricacies of the Practices Torah and the Rabbinic rulings, I would like to see the answers limited to those who have extensive practiced and studied knowledge thereof. Thanks for the input again but can we please keep this one MJ or J only. It's much less confusing for someone who is new. I'm not ready for debates yet.

 

[ChavaK]

Ok I have two questions:
1) concerning food laws- is there more to it than Leviticus chapter 11? Because that seems pretty basic and easy honestly.

If you are going to follow basic Messianic teachings, then the food laws
as outlined in the Torah do seem easy. However, you have to be very careful of ingredients because many of them can contain unkosher items.

Rabbinical kosher laws are much more complex, and generally not followed by Messianics.

 

[Diakoneo10]

Thank you seven. That makes a little more sense as to the classifications.

I saw it brought up earlier that Jews and Messianics do not practice the law in the same ways. Is the sacrificial element the only difference? Shouldn't the reading and interpretation be the same? I understand some MJ's don't observe Talmud and other sources... But Biblically- are the differences based solely on scriptures?