Kosher

[Diakoneo10]

Ok I have two questions:
1) concerning food laws- is there more to it than Leviticus chapter 11? Because that seems pretty basic and easy honestly.

2) when things/people are referred to as being unclean.... What does this mean? Why does it matter if we are unclean? What are the consequences?

 

[GuardianShua]

Ok I have two questions:
1) concerning food laws- is there more to it than Leviticus chapter 11? Because that seems pretty basic and easy honestly.

2) when things/people are referred to as being unclean.... What does this mean? Why does it matter if we are unclean? What are the consequences?

It has to do with being ceremonially clean and unclean. It also has to do with general health issues.

 

[Patricio]

bgbrgbrgb

 

[Diakoneo10]

I don't grasp the concept of ceremonial cleanliness though. I get the general health bit but I don't understand why being"unclean " was something to be avoided. Why did it matter?

 

[Diakoneo10]

Thank you for your detailed answer Patricio!

 

[Patricio]

Thank you for your detailed answer Patricio!

You are welcome Diakoneo!

 

[yedida]

Well my simplest answer is, don't let yourself get caught on the teachings of man. Rabbis and sages had placed hard fences around Torah, partially because in ancient times, physical cleanliness was quite hard to achieve since there was still no faucets, detergents, soaps and other cleaning products available at that time. During the moment that the Israelites were considered as nomads, who were just around in the wilderness, lurking and wandering, they often had no water at all, and so touching anything unkosher or "tame" (unclean) was to be avoided at all costs.

If they did make contact with anything unclean, depending on the situation, they had to stay in isolation in their place outside the camp until sundown in order to make sure the germs wouldn't spread and couldn't infect someone else. In my humble opinion, by the time they returned to the camp, Adonai possibly disinfect or sanitize the person concerned. Life of Ancient Israelites was really unyielding back then but Adonai was simply trying to show people how to be clean and avoid/prevent the physical and spiritual filthiness they could get in this world.

However, today we do have ways of keeping ourselves, foods and our home kosher, and so it's rabbinical to think we cannot eat from plates in non-kosher restaurants or at our non-believer's friend's house. The dishes have been (or should have been!) properly washed. What matter most is your intent that you are NOT out there purposely eating unkosher foods! If you eat pork or shrimp at your friend's house or in a restaurant, then that's the problem because it only means that you are deliberately sinning.

The bottom line is, we live in an unkosher world where it's practically impossibly to get away from unclean things. The best we can do is to read the ingredients of packed products before buying and refuse to buy any foods that have been placed beside the unkosher ones. Adonai expects us to obey to the best of our ability. There are high-handed sins and sins done in err. Adonai knows the difference. We can say we're sorry and Adonai is faithful and He can cleanse us from all uncleanliness if and only if we didn't deliberate or willingly did that particular sin.

So just observe what Leviticus11 says because Adonai expects our WILLINGNESS to obey and do the best we can.

Shalom!

I'm sorry, but clean and unclean have absolutely nothing to do with cleanileness or dirt or germs.
It's a state of being. If a person is unclean, they are ceremonially in a state of "being" that is unacceptable to Hashem. He gives them a way to return to a state of "being," of being ceremonially clean once again.
A person who has become "unclean" has not particularly committed a sin. Sin and uncleanness does not always walk hand-in-hand, sometimes but not always.

The difference between clean and unclean animals is simply one (the clean) God has called good for food, the other (the unclean) God has said we shall not eat. It's not a matter of an animal being better than another - they both have they God-given jobs to do, it's simply what God chose. Sometimes we can see the "why" in it, oftentimes we can't. We just simply obey what He said. He always has our best interest in mind.

 

[yedida]

The bottom line is, we live in an unkosher world where it's practically impossibly to get away from unclean things. The best we can do is to read the ingredients of packed products before buying and refuse to buy any foods that have been placed beside the unkosher ones. Adonai expects us to obey to the best of our ability. There are high-handed sins and sins done in err. Adonai knows the difference. We can say we're sorry and Adonai is faithful and He can cleanse us from all uncleanliness if and only if we didn't deliberate or willingly did that particular sin.

So just observe what Leviticus11 says because Adonai expects our WILLINGNESS to obey and do the best we can.

Shalom!

One thing I'd like to add to this portion of your post is that even though people who do not do this don't understand, it's a wonderful way to let God in on our lives. Even in tiny little things like that can of soup. Read the ingredients - can we have this as food? We are in partnership with our Creator when doing something as mundane as grocery shopping!! Isn't that just so cool?

 

[yedida]

I don't grasp the concept of ceremonial cleanliness though. I get the general health bit but I don't understand why being"unclean " was something to be avoided. Why did it matter?

We have several in this forum who can tackle the matter of clean/unclean (in hebrew tame/tahor) much better than I can do. I'm sure they'll be along soon and will be able to explain it to you. Where's Lulav? David? ChavaK? Avodat? someone?

 

[xDenax]

Ok I have two questions:
1) concerning food laws- is there more to it than Leviticus chapter 11? Because that seems pretty basic and easy honestly.

It depends on who you ask...who are you asking? Messainics? Messianic Jews? Jews?

 

[Patricio]

I'm sorry, but clean and unclean have absolutely nothing to do with cleanileness or dirt or germs.

Yes they have, yedida.

brgbntntgnss

It's a state of being. If a person is unclean, they are ceremonially in a state of "being" that is unacceptable to Hashem. He gives them a way to return to a state of "being," of being ceremonially clean once again.

A person who has become "unclean" has not particularly committed a sin. Sin and uncleanness does not always walk hand-in-hand, sometimes but not always.

Yeah, and at the same time, eating unclean foods or touching unclean items not only makes our body (externally and internally) filthy, but also serves to cause us to be disobedient to God. And I think all kinds of disobedience to Him are called sins and that makes you spiritually unclean.

But for those women who were in there nidda (menstruation period) or for those people accidentally eat or touch unclean things it only makes them physically and ritualistically unclean. "Ritualistically", because they are expected to do a ritual or certain ceremony first before they'll be cleanse. One example of a Jewish ritual is immersing in a mikveh (ritual) to become ritually clean.

Uncleanness denotes:

• Physical or Ritually, Mat 23:27

• Spiritual or Moral, Rom 1:24; 6:19; 2Cr 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 4:19; 5:3; Col 3:5; 1Th 2:3

And also, Gal 5:19-21 says:

And it is perfectly evident what the old nature does. It expresses itself in sexual immorality, uncleanliness and indecency; involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding, fighting, becoming jealous and getting angry; in selfish ambition, factionalism, intrigue and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God!

And I believe the uncleanliness there could be anything from a dirty house, to unhygienic characteristic, to moral depravity.

 

[xDenax]

Well my simplest answer is, don't let yourself get caught on the teachings of man. Rabbis and sages had placed hard fences around Torah, partially because in ancient times, physical cleanliness was quite hard to achieve since there was still no faucets, detergents, soaps and other cleaning products available at that time. During the moment that the Israelites were considered as nomads, who were just around in the wilderness, lurking and wandering, they often had no water at all, and so touching anything unkosher or "tame" (unclean) was to be avoided at all costs.

If they did make contact with anything unclean, depending on the situation, they had to stay in isolation in their place outside the camp until sundown in order to make sure the germs wouldn't spread and couldn't infect someone else. In my humble opinion, by the time they returned to the camp, Adonai possibly disinfect or sanitize the person concerned. Life of Ancient Israelites was really unyielding back then but Adonai was simply trying to show people how to be clean and avoid/prevent the physical and spiritual filthiness they could get in this world.

I've seen a chicken eat a dead and rotting mouse and rabbits in cages who eat nothing but clean vegetables. Is one more likely to spread germs? Yeah..probably and it's the one that is considered "kosher". Perhaps some rules of kashrut were about health but many of them made no sense when it came to health.

 

[yedida]

Yes they have, yedida.

Scientifically, eating unclean foods or touching the dead are harmful to our health. Why? Because it brings germs and bacteria that may cause sickness. (And I personally view any sickness or illness as negative consequences of people's action)

You probably, disagrees with this because you view that the Torah isn't a guidebook to medical and health issues. Nevertheless, it is a known fact that the Israel has been saved from various diseases by eating kosher food. Pork has parasitic worms that caused trichinosis while seafoods without scales have more lead and mercury content which is very poisonous to humans.



Yeah, and at the same time, eating unclean foods or touching unclean items not only makes our body (externally and internally) filthy, but also serves to cause us to be disobedient to God! And I think all kinds of disobedience to him are called sins and that makes you spiritually unclean.

But for those women who were in there nidda (menstruation period) or for those people accidentally eat or touch unclean things it only makes them physically and ritualistically unclean. Ritualistically because they are expected to do a ritual or certain ceremony first before they'll be cleanse. One of the ritual is immersing in a mikveh (ritual) to become ritually clean.

Uncleanness denotes:

• Physical or Ritually, Mat 23:27

• Spiritual or Moral, Rom 1:24; 6:19; 2Cr 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 4:19; 5:3; Col 3:5; 1Th 2:3

And also, Gal 5:19-21 says:

And it is perfectly evident what the old nature does. It expresses itself in sexual immorality, uncleanliness and indecency; involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding, fighting, becoming jealous and getting angry; in selfish ambition, factionalism, intrigue and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God!

And I believe the uncleanliness there could be anything from a dirty house, to unhygienic characteristic, to moral depravity.

I wasn't speaking in terms of generality. An "unclean" animal is not specifically a dirty animal, or a germ carrying animal (i.e., more so than a "clean" animal). A person who has become unclean because of an unclean animal or touching a corpse is not necessarily a person who is now filthy, dirty, stinky, or carrying a bagful of germs (anymore than a person who is in a state of "cleanness"). The rest goes without saying. I'm sorry you didn't understand what I was saying.....

 

[Patricio]

I've seen a chicken eat a dead and rotting mouse and rabbits in cages who eat nothing but clean vegetables. Is one more likely to spread germs? Yeah..probably and it's the one that is considered "kosher". Perhaps some rules of kashrut were about health but many of them made no sense when it came to health.

Well when it come to a chicken eating a dead mouse (even though I never heard or seen such a thing ), then the chicken I believe, is not kosher anymore because those that are carnivorous, those that are scavengers, and those that eat dead things are all unkosher.

Rabbits, even though they only eat vegetables and fruits are unkosher because like rodents, they all carry many diseases including hantavirus, leptospirosis, and salmonella.

 

[ChavaK]

it's rabbinical to think we cannot eat from plates in non-kosher restaurants or at our non-believer's friend's house. The dishes have been (or should have been!) properly washed.

It's not a matter of them being properly washed....it's a matter of the dishes absorbing the essence of the treif food. Washing your dishes doesn't remove that Also, homes and restaurants that aren't kosher have a whole lot of problems with them as far as ingredients etc.

 

[Patricio]

An "unclean" animal is not specifically a dirty animal, or a germ carrying animal (i.e., more so than a "clean" animal).

Yes they are. Adonai call them unclean so it literally means they are not clean...

 

[yedida]

Yes they are. Adonai call them unclean so it only literally means they are not really unclean or dirty.



They are not really stinky but they are indeed dirty because they acquired a certain bacteria or infection because they ate it or touched a ecrain unkosher thing.

Are you a Jewish person who has come to believe in Messiah? And is your profile correct that you accepted Yeshua in March of 2011?

Also, you might want to take a look at your first statement - you kind of contradicted yourself.

 

[Patricio]

It's not a matter of them being properly washed....it's a matter of the dishes absorbing the essence of the treif food. Washing your dishes doesn't remove that Also, homes and restaurants that aren't kosher have a who lot of problems with them as far as ingredients etc.

Being kosher today as a Messianic believer is a matter of being careful "to that", wherever I go to a fast food chain, I always purposely choose only beef products or "clean" fish products, and stay away from pork, shrimp, crab, etc. I always ask the waiter or the service crew first, what are the ingredients of it.

Or when I buy meat from unkosher market, one I get the meat home, my mother always "kosherize it" by pouring salt all over it (salt draws out the blood) and putting it in water and boiling it for a couple minutes

Adonai just wants us to do our best to obey, that's all. We cannot held responsibility to the things we didn't know. This is where the grace of Yeshua comes.

 

[Patricio]

Are you a Jewish person who has come to believe in Messiah? And is your profile correct that you accepted Yeshua in March of 2011?

Nope. I am a Catholic really, but I came to believe in the Hebrew Yeshua (not the Greek Jesus) just recently.

Also, you might want to take a look at your first statement - you kind of contradicted yourself.

Huh? Sorry but I am not understanding your question.

 

[xDenax]

Well when it come to a chicken eating a dead mouse (even though I never heard or seen such a thing ), then the chicken I believe, is not kosher anymore because those that are carnivorous, those that are scavengers, and those that eat dead things are all unkosher.

Nobody can watch to see what a chicken eats every moment of every day. I was raised on a small farm and my brother lives there currently, raising chickens. I assure you they will eat dead things. I bet cows occasionally eat dead bugs too.

Rabbits, even though they only eat vegetables and fruits are unkosher because like rodents, they all carry many diseases including hantavirus, leptospirosis, and salmonella.

You are mistaken. This is not the reason rabbit isn't kosher.