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Knowledge of Evil

Fortunecookie

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In the Story of Adam and Eve. God forbade them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

They could separate Good from Evil already. Since they knew that eating the apple was evil. However they did not truly know evil. Since one could only know evil after eating the apple.

What exactly is sin? The evil act required to get knowledge of evil or having the knowledge of evil itself (which would spiritually defile us)?

Thank you,

Fortunecookie
 

Inkfingers

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In the Story of Adam and Eve. God forbade them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

They could separate Good from Evil already. Since they knew that eating the apple was evil. However they did not truly know evil. Since one could only know evil after eating the apple.

What exactly is sin? The evil act required to get knowledge of evil or having the knowledge of evil itself (which would spiritually defile us)?

Thank you,

Fortunecookie

Eden is metaphor, not history, which represents (imho) the rise of relativism; which is the idea that WE get to say what is good or evil rather than submitting to God's judgement on the matter.
 
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Paradoxum

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Why was eating the apple a sin? Was it a magically bad apple? What did it do that was so bad? Why did God even put the tree there?

The story is silly if you take it literally. Magic bad apples; talking snakes with legs; attempts at explaining pain in child birth; it's obviously a myth (a spiritual myth, if you're a Christian).
 
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In the Story of Adam and Eve. God forbade them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

They could separate Good from Evil already. Since they knew that eating the apple was evil. However they did not truly know evil. Since one could only know evil after eating the apple.

What exactly is sin? The evil act required to get knowledge of evil or having the knowledge of evil itself (which would spiritually defile us)?

Thank you,

Fortunecookie

I think sin is choosing not to obey God's commandments, here.

I think sin isn't necessarily knowledge, it's choice.

I could go further -- but that's not necessary yet for this discussion, I think.

And that's a very good point regarding knowledge, Fortunecookie -- that Adam and Eve knew what evil was. Is that sin, then?

I think they know ABOUT sin, but didn't know sin DIRECTLY. "If you eat... you will surely die" (Genesis 2). It's as if your parent tells you, "If you touch the stove, you will get burned." This way, you know that stoves are hot, and humans don't cope well with things that are too hot. Hah.

Thus, Adam and Eve knew -- but didn't know fully. (Knowledge is in degrees I guess.)

Then again, lets talk motivation. Adam and Eve's motivation -- was it sinful or was it out of innocent curiosity? The snake questioned God's commandment. Eve listened, ate; and said, "Dang, this apple is greeeeeat!" Adam ate, too. But they knew not to eat, because God commanded it.

Am I clear? Hah.
 
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The story is silly if you take it literally. Magic bad apples; talking snakes with legs; attempts at explaining pain in child birth; it's obviously a myth (a spiritual myth, if you're a Christian).

I think the reality or myth subject deserves a new forum topic. Having two (and more) conversations going on is doing forum business, but having two topics going on in one thread might get confusing.
 
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In the Story of Adam and Eve. God forbade them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

They could separate Good from Evil already. Since they knew that eating the apple was evil. However they did not truly know evil. Since one could only know evil after eating the apple.
I think of Adam and Eve as wholly true in essence and matter (body). In this state of perfection, the term "morality" to my thinking could have no meaning to them because morality is the word we use to describe the tension and resistance naturally imposed in the confluence of true and false components. Since they were created in perfection, I'm sure they were able to understand God's command to not eat as as having consequences they understood intellectually and conceptually to be what would be considered to be and could properly be called "bad". 'Head' knowledge is distinct from knowledge derived from experience. Seems to me they had an understanding of the concepts good and bad but didn't "know" evil until they choose "badly" and infected their essence with fragmental falsity. They went from possession of a wholly true soul to one fragmentally falsified, creating the beginnings of tension and resistance in the mind...hence "morality" came into existence and has been with us since.

This view seems consistent with what followed in the garden, that they suddenly knew to hide from God where previously they enjoyed a face to face relationship. God's pure Truth essence produced tension in juxtaposition with even that small stain of falsity in their souls, causing them to realize they were naked, seeking to cover themselves and hiding from God. We've been hiding from God ever since. (Jn 3:19-20). This view would also be consistent with the gradually decreasing life cycles in Gen 5, assuming value-fragmentation (elemental corruption of true to false) passes causally from essence to matter. Point is, I don't think they knew it was "evil" to eat, even though they knew it was in some way 'off the mark' to do so.

What exactly is sin? The evil act required to get knowledge of evil or having the knowledge of evil itself (which would spiritually defile us)?
I think you come close to the right answer in the latter. I don't see a workable path from having knowledge of evil to spiritual defilement. But in the idea put forth above, there seems a viable relationship between the fragmental falsification of the soul, the pressure we call "morality" and moral responsibility for sin.

With respect to the whole individual, falsity of itself is devoid of evil or immorality in somewhat the same sense a living cell is devoid of personhood. Assuming a wholly different set of properties from matter called "consciousness" emerges from material constituents, it seems reasonable to suppose a wholly different set of prescriptive properties (good/evil, morality, ought, ought not, etc.) arise from the fragmental value-corruption of that consciousness.

I personally don't buy the materialistic example, but use it above to model what I agree with you to be a spiritual defect. But the answer to your question 'what is sin?' from this perspective is that sin is a conscious choice to unite with the false--assuming mental content, like the mind which processes it, consists of a variety of fragmentally true/false propositions used from which to exercise the will, or from which to reach a conclusion or choose. Sin is the at least semi-conscious choice to unite with the false when both true and false are available to the mind to choose between. It's a power available (will) as a function of the intellectual process.

This process of emergence seems also to explain how guilt for wrongdoing can at least conceptually be passed from individuals to a greater whole--the state--such that reparations to the black community for years of mistreatment by a government can be discussed, or the propriety of payments to American Indians for what "we" did to them, etc.
 
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Edouard

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Think of the most ridiculous truthful story that has ever happened to you. Then think to yourself if you told a crowd of strangers if they would think your true story would hold fact if it just happened to you without witnesses.

Review the story of Adam and Eve: what imperical evidence do you have to say that this story is false?

It takes Faith to believe in whatever you believe in. No matter what it is. I favor historical fact (not referencing Adam and Eve - even though I view this as a literal true event) rather than man's logic.
 
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Paradoxum

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Think of the most ridiculous truthful story that has ever happened to you. Then think to yourself if you told a crowd of strangers if they would think your true story would hold fact if it just happened to you without witnesses.

I can't think of one. Apparently I have a boring life. :p

Review the story of Adam and Eve: what imperical evidence do you have to say that this story is false?

Well the mountains of evidence for evolution would be the empirical evidence. Also, pain in childbirth happens for biological reasons. It's not something you just magically make appear.

If the serpent were Satan, why would God curse all serpents? Obviously no real serpent had anything to do with it, if it was the devil. The Bible does talk as if the Serpent was just an animal though. But animals can't talk... so again, it seems like a myth.

It takes Faith to believe in whatever you believe in. No matter what it is. I favor historical fact (not referencing Adam and Eve - even though I view this as a literal true event) rather than man's logic.

I'd say it doesn't require faith to have a reasonable worldview, but it depends what you mean by faith.
 
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Received

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Well, it doesn't follow that they knew evil and good. They knew obedience and disobedience. When you're in Eden, everything is good, which is another way of saying that nothing is good; the terms good and evil are reflective, and without at least a concept of one, you can't have the other.
 
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It takes Faith to believe in whatever you believe in. No matter what it is. I favor historical fact (not referencing Adam and Eve - even though I view this as a literal true event) rather than man's logic.

Repeat after me:

"Burden of Proof, I choose you!"
It's irrelevant whether the Gen account is literal or allegorical. The same underlying lessons are derived in either case.
 
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