Knowing God

[Rat_bytes]

Love and Power are complete opposites.

That's a stupid thing to say. A mother loves her son, yet she also has power over him.

Re accepting Christ, It sounds like you wanted to change so much that you did. That's a testament to your own immense willpower, not some invisible deity.

There is an indescribable "tug" in my spirit,

I've got it too. It's called "the little voice", or "your concience". I find it confusing but perhaps not unpredictable that you attribute your sudden change in lifestyle to a god. Some people just find it hard to believe that they have that power in themselves, and that they don't need to thank a nonexistant god for their own huge achievements.

 

[ahman]

I was under the impression he was all powerful. If I was all powerful and I didn't like what was happening, I'd change it. Either God's not as powerful as you think he is, or he's not a very nice God. After all, he doesn't have to abide by rules, so there's no reason why he shouldn't do something unless he's not all powerful.


Then you believe in it very strongly. Knowing requires proof. You have no proof of God's existance, therefore you do not "know" anything about him or what he thinks. To say that you know god loves you is an incorrect usage of the word.

God is all powerful. if he just solved everything for us, what would be the point of even existing? we would not know happiness or joy, because we do not have anything to compare it against, therefore we would just be...with no real purpose or sense of anything. we would be puppets. i prefer the free world where i can choose...for better or for worse, than to be a slave. i'd say that's more loving than creating a prison for us.

knowing requires proof...prove that God doesn't exist, until then, you have nothing.

 

[CSMR]

But ultimately we reach Lessings "ugly ditch." One could argue with Kierkegaard that it takes a "blind leap of faith" over the "ugly ditch."...thusly the "knowledge" of God is that of a blind faith.

And it also takes such blind faith to even perceive the ugly ditch. To perceive that there is a ditch between us and God (or absolute truth - whatever is on the other side) means that we have seen beyond our side of the ditch - paradoxically while still remaining blind to anything that is not on our side.

I had a professor once....a devout Christian....who said that on any given day he fluctuated between 90 and 99% certainty in the existence of God. He said that anyone who had 100% certainly was subject to conceit and puffed-uppedness.

I think this is a wrong attitude, which often proceeds from a natural-scientific disposition.
It is certainly absurd to have 100% certainty, or even more, to have knowledge, of God. That is because God is in heaven, while we, our sight, our thoughts, and our language, are bounded by the earth. Even to mention the word God is absurd.
But while it is absurd to know that God exists, it is ludicrous to believe that God exists with 90% chance. Not only do we imagine a world under God, when God cannot be imagined, but we imagine a world in which there are two possibilities, that of the world being under God, and that of the world just being in itself. This is absurd because it talks of God, but more than that ludicrous because it takes this impossible understanding and it puts it as a possibility within the domain of rational thought.

God affirms knowledge of himself within the human being, so that "I know" becomes a reality.

This is a very acceptable answer to the question. What is only a foolish belief on earth becomes the knowledge of God through grace.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I know God just like you know me thru an alterane source of communication. In our case it's this forum, in the case of God and I, it's my spirit, which is born of God. I feel an intemicy from God on a personal level. I testify that the bible is the word of God, and that Jesus is the only reason I know him as a Father. I know without a shadow of a doubt God.

 

[repentandbelieve]

I just find it funny that people think God helps them in their day to day lives, yet he lets children die horrific deaths in darfur and iraq.

It must not have occured to you that many of the people suffering in darfur and iraq actually praise God for helping them in their day to day lives when they recieve aid from others. Surely if your eyes saw this you wouldn't find it funny at all.

You're critical of God, saying that if He is all powerful why doesn't he do something about all the suffering in the world.

My friend, God is doing something about it. That's what all the charity and missionary work going on in the world is about. It's quite typical for God to accomplish His work through human agents. Humanity helping humanity.

My question to you is this. How is it that people criticize God for not doing everything within His power to help others, when they themselves are not doing everything within their own power to help others? Doesn't that seem hypocritical to you?

 

[k]

That's a stupid thing to say. A mother loves her son, yet she also has power over him.

Here is a good example of separating my conscience from the Holy Spirit. My conscience would condone responding with something equally insulting, but my relationship with Christ, through the Holy Spirit, leads me to love, and not reciprocate that which is hurtful.

A mother loves her son, yet she has authority over him. Authority is quite different from power in that when power is present, love is absent. A great example is the Iraq war. The US obviously has the power to murder thousands of people and steal another country, but does it have the Authority to do so? Power is present, love is absent.

Re accepting Christ, It sounds like you wanted to change so much that you did. That's a testament to your own immense willpower, not some invisible deity.

There is no such thing as "willpower." It simply does not exist. It is a testament to the Love of God through Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

God is not invisible to me or tens of millions of other people, we are just looking through a different set of lenses.

I've got it too. It's called "the little voice", or "your concience". I find it confusing but perhaps not unpredictable that you attribute your sudden change in lifestyle to a god. Some people just find it hard to believe that they have that power in themselves, and that they don't need to thank a nonexistant god for their own huge achievements.

By your own admission of atheism, there is no way you have what I stated. True, you may have a conscience, but this relies solely on your finite human understanding and sight.

A "nonexistant god?" On what evidence do you claim to be able to state there is no God?

 

[repentandbelieve]

I don't even need to say it. I'm sorry, but you totally walked into that one.

There is no need to apologize, it's the truth. A biblical truth at that, and one that no one needs to be ashamed of.

The natural man recieves not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discernerd. (1Cor 2-14)

For the purpose of this teaching, a person is considered to be a "natural man" until they have been born again. So in other words, the reason some people say that they know God when others say that they do not is this, some people have recieved revealation from the spirit of God and some have not.

I hope this helps you in your search for the truth and answers your question about "knowing God".

 

[repentandbelieve]

Here is a good example of separating my conscience from the Holy Spirit. My conscience would condone responding with something equally insulting, but my relationship with Christ, through the Holy Spirit, leads me to love, and not reciprocate that which is hurtful.

A mother loves her son, yet she has authority over him. Authority is quite different from power in that when power is present, love is absent. A great example is the Iraq war. The US obviously has the power to murder thousands of people and steal another country, but does it have the Authority to do so? Power is present, love is absent.


There is no such thing as "willpower." It simply does not exist. It is a testament to the Love of God through Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

God is not invisible to me or tens of millions of other people, we are just looking through a different set of lenses.


By your own admission of atheism, there is no way you have what I stated. True, you may have a conscience, but this relies solely on your finite human understanding and sight.

A "nonexistant god?" On what evidence do you claim to be able to state there is no God?

Well said neverstop. I agree wholeheartedly with the way you explained the differentation of power and authority. However, I must say this. I do believe in will power. Speaking from personal experience I can say that my spirit is willing to do many things but my flesh is weak.

 

[k]

Well said neverstop. I agree wholeheartedly with the way you explained the differentation of power and authority. However, I must say this. I do believe in will power. Speaking from personal experience I can say that my spirit is willing to do many things but my flesh is weak.

Thanks for the kind words, but as you know, Christ deserves the Glory.

On the willpower thing, I was referring to my flesh, or more specifically, the desires in my own mind. I fail several times everyday on different issues, and the only common denominator is that in each instance, I did not give it over to Christ, but tried to wrestle it on my on "willpower."

Take care

 

[Rat_bytes]

So pretty much what you're saying is humans don't deserve to feel any sort of pride for their momentous achievements, they have to thank their god for them instead. That sure does make a lot of sense. Not.

if he just solved everything for us, what would be the point of even existing?

This is a contradiction from what neverstop said, as he thinks we turn everything over to christ to do it for us, and when we try to do it on our own, we fail.
Anyhow, I didn't say he should solve everything for us. I said he should prevent the horrific suffering that's happening right now, in at least a dozen places in the world.

My friend, God is doing something about it. That's what all the charity and missionary work going on in the world is about. It's quite typical for God to accomplish His work through human agents. Humanity helping humanity.

Too little too late. If powerful countries like america and britain had intervened in darfur, they could have stopped the slaughter of thousands apon thousands of people. Not to mention the systematic rape of women and the torture and killing of children.

My question to you is this. How is it that people criticize God for not doing everything within His power to help others, when they themselves are not doing everything within their own power to help others? Doesn't that seem hypocritical to you?

Do you call giving over more than a quarter of my weekly wage to the sponsoring of two little girls in india and africa not doing everything within my power? Do you sponsor a child? I think I'm quite qualified to criticize God for not doing everything in his power to help people, thanks all the same.

 

[k]

This is a contradiction from what neverstop said, as he thinks we turn everything over to christ to do it for us, and when we try to do it on our own, we fail.

Point of clarification: We turn it over to Christ to do it through us. Doing it "for" us is just an inherent bonus from God's Grace. The other part is true. Every SINGLE time I have tried to do something based on my own desire, wisdom, or insight, it failed.

Too little too late. If powerful countries like america and britain had intervened in darfur, they could have stopped the slaughter of thousands apon thousands of people. Not to mention the systematic rape of women and the torture and killing of children.

There is no argument or doubt there are literally millions of atrocities happening around us all of the time. We can choose. We can focus on the horrible stuff and feel all doopy soupy sad, or we can choose to never give up, never lose sight of love, and NEVER think it is too late.

Do you call giving over more than a quarter of my weekly wage to the sponsoring of two little girls in india and africa not doing everything within my power?

How's that working for you? You know, the attempt to alleviate the guilt you feel by sharing money? Please do not receive that as being mean, but I am a straightforward person, and that is just how I see it based on the tone of your posts.

I think I'm quite qualified to criticize God for not doing everything in his power to help people, thanks all the same.

I have empathy for you 'cause I don't think you can even begin to scratch the air around the dust of the surface of just how arrogant of a statement that is.

Btw, God is not a "he."

 

[ahman]

Too little too late. If powerful countries like america and britain had intervened in darfur, they could have stopped the slaughter of thousands apon thousands of people. Not to mention the systematic rape of women and the torture and killing of children.

notice how you said if America and Britian intervned. When you have free will, you have all of it, not just some and then we get it cut off if we make a really bad choice, we get free will for every decision. That's the general idea of freedom. this world doesn't come with training wheels, just the manual (bible), if you make a wrong choice, you damn well learn from it and don't pin the blame on God for not coming and holding your hand. you can't have it both ways. You can't turn your back on him, and then call him out when you make a mistake. If you don't listen to him, that is your problem.
America and Britain should have intervened, and i spose that's what God would have told them, but they didn't ask did they?

 

[repentandbelieve]

Do you call giving over more than a quarter of my weekly wage to the sponsoring of two little girls in india and africa not doing everything within my power? Do you sponsor a child? I think I'm quite qualified to criticize God for not doing everything in his power to help people, thanks all the same.

If you are doing what you claim to be doing then you are doing what God has commanded people to do. The amount of suffering in the world could be greatly reduced if more people were doing what you claim to be doing.

Why criticize God because not enough people are doing what He has commanded them to do?

The problem with the world isn't that there isn't enough money. The problem is with the way money is split up. Yhe average person in China earns $200.00 a yr. The average person in the United states spends twice that much on beer. Why blame that on God?

Could it be that Gods intended method to relieve suffering is by blessing some so that they can in turn become co-laborers with Him by passing their blessings on to others who are in need?

 

[k]

If you are doing what you claim to be doing then you are doing what God has commanded people to do. The amount of suffering in the world could be greatly reduced if more people were doing what you claim to be doing.

Why criticize God because not enough people are doing what He has commanded them to do?

The problem with the world isn't that there isn't enough money. The problem is with the way money is split up. Yhe average person in China earns $200.00 a yr. The average person in the United states spends twice that much on beer. Why blame that on God?

Could it be that Gods intended method to relieve suffering is by blessing some so that they can in turn become co-laborers with Him by passing their blessings on to others who are in need?

Excellent points!!

 

[repentandbelieve]

notice how you said if America and Britian intervned. When you have free will, you have all of it, not just some and then we get it cut off if we make a really bad choice, we get free will for every decision. That's the general idea of freedom. this world doesn't come with training wheels, just the manual (bible), if you make a wrong choice, you damn well learn from it and don't pin the blame on God for not coming and holding your hand. you can't have it both ways. You can't turn your back on him, and then call him out when you make a mistake. If you don't listen to him, that is your problem.
America and Britain should have intervened, and i spose that's what God would have told them, but they didn't ask did they?

Right on. And just look at the criticizm the US and Britain has gotten for intervening in Iraq. It sadens me to see the world is so full of faultfinders.

 

[Johnnz]

The dichotomy of faith vs reason is unfounded and unfortunate. Faith, without some reasonable basis, can be little more than mere credulity, or at its worst, self deception bsed on wishful thinking.

John
NZ

 

[CSMR]

Is not reason itself based in wishful thinking?

 

[Rat_bytes]

Right on. And just look at the criticizm the US and Britain has gotten for intervening in Iraq. It sadens me to see the world is so full of faultfinders.

Do you know WHY they recieved criticism? Do you know WHY everyone was so angry about it?

 

[repentandbelieve]

Do you know WHY they recieved criticism? Do you know WHY everyone was so angry about it?

Some seem to think that there is a certain amount of virtue in expressing their dissatisfaction in whatever is being done by others.
"Everyone" isn't angry about it. Some see it as a neccessary evil.

 

[Rat_bytes]

They LIED. They LIED about going to war, and they LIED about the reasons they were going to war. They spent literally billions of dollars of taxpayer's hard earned money on a war that never should have happened, at least not for the reasons that they gave.
Governments should not lie to the people.