Knowing God

[Rat_bytes]

I'm noticing that most of the christians that post on this forum do not say "I believe" but rather "I know".
To me, this is very interesting. You have absolutely no doubt in your minds that your assertions about an entity you have never seen, heard, or touched are absolutely correct.
How do you know this? Indeed, how do you really know anything about God? If you haven't heard answers from the lips of God himself then how can you be 100% sure that what you believe is correct? Everything that you "know" about God comes from the mouths of men, not God. And men, as we all know, are so fallible.

Many would quote the bible in answer to my question. Still more would hold the bible up as "the word of god". I find this also interesting. Why would a God whom you say is infinite, all powerful, and whose influence pervades everything you can imagine, use an insignificant little book to spread his word? Surely the sheer magnitude of his "word" would be impossible to express in any feeble human language.

I believe the real word of god lies in what you see around you. A tree, a sunset, snow on a mountain, a newborn animal, wolves hunting a buffalo, a waterfall, the clouds in the sky. This, I believe, is the real word of God. Should he have a sense of humour, I expect he would think it funny that we are so misguided as to see an old book as his word.

 

[openeyes]

Rat_bytes,
The belief is so strong most "know".
You are correct, in saying that most cling to what they have been taught by another. They latch onto the Bible as a total history book. God's word is contained therein, but it is coded deeply in it's messages. Man's words are flawed when attempting to directly write His word, but by using metaphores what God meant is there.
The Christian teachers, I have expirienced, use these written words as the direct word.
I also believe God's word lies in the desciption of the things you mentioned, or the description of the feelings encounterd viewing these things. No words can descibe the beauty of a sunset, a snow covered mountain top, or the miricle of birth. The same goes for God's word, no human mouth can utter them, but they can be felt.
Sound like you have some Eastern background or teaching....

 

[Rat_bytes]

No eastern background, sorry, I'm just a normal white male. My best friend's dad is a vietnamese buddhist...

Also something else I've thought of. When translating the bible, a lot of the original meaning will be lost due to inconsistancies in the language. You can see an example of this when you play a japanese video game, "super flower get" isn't exactly fluent english. Unless the people who translated the bible were linguistic geniuses (which I highly doubt) then there is bound to be bits that are simply lost in translation.

 

[ClementofRome]

You raise a good point. The question of "knowledge" of god/God is certainly not a new one, and it is not only Christians who have used this type of terminology in the quest to prove the existence of god/God.

It appears that even you are using a commonly recognized argument (cosmological argument) for the existence of God. The recognition that there must be a god by observing creation, the cosmos, etc.

I am comfortable using "I Know", but I think that to differentiate between "I know" and "I believe" is splitting hairs. If I believe it.....well, I know it. If I know it...well, I believe it. I know that one might be able to draw differences, but in the discussion of the existence of God, I don't see much difference.

You are correct to say that many arguments for God are the arguments of humans, and are thus prone to fallibillity. However, when you study the history of the argument from Descartes to Lewis....each argument seems to hold water to a certain point. But ultimately we reach Lessings "ugly ditch." One could argue with Kierkegaard that it takes a "blind leap of faith" over the "ugly ditch."...thusly the "knowledge" of God is that of a blind faith. Or, could there be something else?

I had a professor once....a devout Christian....who said that on any given day he fluctuated between 90 and 99% certainty in the existence of God. He said that anyone who had 100% certainly was subject to conceit and puffed-uppedness. But, even he would say "I know". Yes, it is all very subjective, but I do believe that religious experience is possible in which God affirms knowledge of himself within the human being, so that "I know" becomes a reality. I could turn to biblical evidence as well, but will not since you reject it as having any relevance to the argument.

A side note: To suggest that the Bible is an "insignificant little book", is a bit disingenuous. And I say that from merely a historical perspective, not a Christian perspective.

 

[Rat_bytes]

It appears that even you are using a commonly recognized argument (cosmological argument) for the existence of God. The recognition that there must be a god by observing creation, the cosmos, etc.

Far from it, my friend, I am an atheist through and through. I am simply revealing what I WOULD believe were I a spiritual person. The very idea of God means that one cannot prove his existance, because what would be the point of "believing" in god if you knew he was there?
I just find it funny that people think God helps them in their day to day lives, yet he lets children die horrific deaths in darfur and iraq.

Okay, maybe insignificant is a bad word to use when describing the bible. But the beauty of the bible is that you can take it's passages and make them mean anything you want them to mean. 600 years ago the bible said the world was flat. 400 years ago the bible said it was okay to kill witches. 200 years ago the bible said slavery was okay. Today the bible says God hates homosexuality. In another 200 years, the bible will probably say that it's wrong to put squeegle with your borfers.

 

[Rat_bytes]

I'm sorry, I just reread my first post and it does say "I believe". Apologies for that.

 

[openeyes]

You can be a "normal white male" and be schooled in Eastern philosophy....
Your argument about translations can be applied to any text translated from one language to another.
I think you may have confused "translations" and "interpretations". True certain passages and verses are isolated and interpeted to fit the mold of the day.
The idea of God/a god is leaning more toward all-knowing/ all-powerful.
It is truly sad to see these children suffer and die, anywhere in the world, that would be a question that can only be answered by God himself. I can't even begin to fathom any reason, myself. It ranks right up ther with: Why do some of the most faithful/ religious people I know suffer the most?

 

[Johnnz]

We 'know' in many ways. Intellectual knowledge is based on rational processes. What I find humourous is an experiential 'knowing'. What I accept about history, or how legal proof means we can 'know' someone is guilty are other types. It is a mistake to set logical 'proof' as the sole criteria for knowledge of God.

The Bible, especially the New Testament, is very reliable history if we judge its historicity by standards accepted for any historical document. Dismissal of the Bible as a series of quaint stories is not an informed position, but a non logical presupposition devoid of honest research.

John
NZ

 

[kedaman]

God is basically an illusion, when people refer to an object, there is no such, to know of.
As object is to knowledge, theology is to teleology. Without God, we could not percieve things in systems, so the principles of systems theory is derived from the regulative principle, or complete systematic unity we call God, presupposed in systematic natural sciences.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Christianity centers on faith and hope more than knowledge. Afterall, who has faith in something , or hopes for something they have already seen or "know" will happen (see Romans 8:24).

By looking at nature we can see the work of God and behold His glory, but it's through Gods word that we recieve important truths and "knowledge of His plan of salvation.

Looking at the trees, sunset, and snow topped mountains reveals a manifestation of Gods glory, but it doesn't reveal a knowledge of the truth concerning the gospel message.

 

[johan777]

John 17:3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

John 17:6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word”.

John 17:7 “Now they have known that all things, whatever You have given Me, are from You”.

John 17:8 “For I have given to them the Words which You gave Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from You. And they have believed that You sent Me”.

You might call this a circular argument; however, if you buy a machine you don’t know and want to find out how to operate it, you read the instructions. If you want to find out about God, you also have to read the instructions, the Bible. If you read the Bible, you will you get to know Him although you might not undrstand everything.

But, you are right in saying that you can know God through a tree, sunset, a waterfall, - nature according to Rom 1:19, 20 "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse".

The problem is that men decided not to worship God but “Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools (Romans 1:21, 22)

Furthermore the Bible states that “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Once man start to glorify Him for who he is, man’s eyes are being opened, and faith to know everything we as Christians confess and believe, comes by hearing the word of God. (Romans 10: 17) As Christians every day of their lives are obedient to God’s leading we also KNOW the truth. “Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed on Him, If you continue in My Word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (John 8:31,32)

We then have absolutely no doubt in our minds that our assertions about an entity we have never seen, heard, or touched are absolutely correct. “Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1Peter 1:8, 9)

 

[ahman]

you know God, by having a relationship with him. If you have something to do with God, you get more knowledge of him, whether this be reading the bible, praying, attending church, or even reading this, you get more knowledge of what God is, and what he means to certain people.

You can never know God in the sense of his dark secrets and his high school crushes, but you know God in terms of his prescence and his plan for you. You know God by having a relationship with him...pretty much lik you have a relationship with your dad.
it'd be hard if you didn't believe of have faith in him eh?
even harder if you had nothing to do with him or didn't talk to him.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Far from it, my friend, I am an atheist through and through. I am simply revealing what I WOULD believe were I a spiritual person. The very idea of God means that one cannot prove his existance, because what would be the point of "believing" in god if you knew he was there?
I just find it funny that people think God helps them in their day to day lives, yet he lets children die horrific deaths in darfur and iraq.

Okay, maybe insignificant is a bad word to use when describing the bible. But the beauty of the bible is that you can take it's passages and make them mean anything you want them to mean. 600 years ago the bible said the world was flat. 400 years ago the bible said it was okay to kill witches. 200 years ago the bible said slavery was okay. Today the bible says God hates homosexuality. In another 200 years, the bible will probably say that it's wrong to put squeegle with your borfers.

The truth doesn't change, it's mans interpetation of the truth that changes.

For now, try to accept/understand that people who claim to "know" God may have experienced something that you have yet to experience. Bible truth sounds foolish to someone who has not been born again.

And as for the suffering in the world, try to understand that everything that happens in this world is not in harmony with Gods will. And if the suffering in world continues to make you feel uncomfortable, sell something you own and give the money to the poor.

Right now at this very instant, millions of people are being relieved from suffering, or spared from it altogether, through people who love others because they "know" the love of God. The glory for this belongs to God, because it's by His grace that it happens.

 

[repentandbelieve]

you know God, by having a relationship with him. If you have something to do with God, you get more knowledge of him, whether this be reading the bible, praying, attending church, or even reading this, you get more knowledge of what God is, and what he means to certain people.

You can never know God in the sense of his dark secrets and his high school crushes, but you know God in terms of his prescence and his plan for you. You know God by having a relationship with him...pretty much lik you have a relationship with your dad.
it'd be hard if you didn't believe of have faith in him eh?
even harder if you had nothing to do with him or didn't talk to him.

Right on ahman, a relationship with God is based more on faith than it is knowledge. A persons relationship with God is similiar to a father and son relationship.
But there is also an element of mystery concerning God that the finite mind of man cannot totally comprehend.

 

[DailyBlessings]

There simply are things that I do know, so deeply that to say "I believe" instead would not do them justice. I know that God loves me as surely and certainly as I know that I love my mother and father, or that I feel pity for those who go without. When I find something through science or philosophy, I might believe it because evidences seem to support it, but spiritual belief transcends this kind of uneasy conclusion. No amount of testing could convince me that mercy and compassion exist, no experiment could prove to me that they do not.

 

[Rat_bytes]

And as for the suffering in the world, try to understand that everything that happens in this world is not in harmony with Gods will.

I was under the impression he was all powerful. If I was all powerful and I didn't like what was happening, I'd change it. Either God's not as powerful as you think he is, or he's not a very nice God. After all, he doesn't have to abide by rules, so there's no reason why he shouldn't do something unless he's not all powerful.

There simply are things that I do know, so deeply that to say "I believe" instead would not do them justice. I know that God loves me as surely and certainly as I know that I love my mother and father, or that I feel pity for those who go without.

Then you believe in it very strongly. Knowing requires proof. You have no proof of God's existance, therefore you do not "know" anything about him or what he thinks. To say that you know god loves you is an incorrect usage of the word.

 

[DailyBlessings]

Then you believe in it very strongly. Knowing requires proof.

In that case, shall we simply remove the verb "to know" from the human language? There is nothing, no principle, no observation, no perception that can be proven beyond doubt. Unless you can think of one, of course. I look at this computer in front of me, but I don't "know" that it is there. It could be the result of hallucination, or dreaming, or some beautifully and intricately crafted hoax, or some fluke of quantum physics. There is always the slim possibility that it's existence could be disproven to me.

But this is not the case with faith. You can never "prove" to me that God does not exist, or that I in fact hate my sister, or that I love ruthlessly cruel actions, because these are outside of the realm of provability. They are as impossible to disprove as they are to prove. Proof has no say in the matter. Now it may be possible that I might change my mind about one of these matters, but there is no way that you could force me to do so, by logic or force. I know them.

 

[Rat_bytes]

Bible truth sounds foolish to someone who has not been born again.

I don't even need to say it. I'm sorry, but you totally walked into that one.

but there is no way that you could force me to do so, by logic or force. I know them.

What makes you think I would waste my time trying?

 

[GreenDragon]

I have noticed this too. People say they know this and that, but how do they know it? It turns out that it is really just what they believe. They say that something just is true, but it's really only their belief. Pulling out bible verses bugs me too (and I'm a Christian). You can't say something in your own words? You have to have the bible speak for you?

 

[k]

I know God as my best friend in Christ. One of the ways I know God is that for 8 years I abused drugs, sex, and alcohol. Tried counseling and groups--nothing. One night, I cried and begged for Jesus to come into my heart and take over my life. Guess what? Stopped doing all those things the very next day. That was the start of my relationship with Christ. There are several other ways I know God. (Scripture even warns us of people who say they "believe" in God)

The Bible is not the Word of God, the Holy Spirit is. John 1:1-4. The Bible is a guide, nothing more, nothing less. I would never try to prove God's existence to another person.

Do I hear a literal voice? No, that would be crazy. There is an indescribable "tug" in my spirit, and I have been practicing obeying that tug because everytime I ignored it, I regretted it, and everytime I obeyed it, affirmation always followed. No, it is not my own conscience because I am not that smart.

There are several issues I still struggle with, but were it not for my Salvation and relationship with Christ I would have killed myself a long time ago, either indirectly or directly.

You stated on another post that "knowing" God requires proof. The fact I am alive at all is enough proof for me.

Here is a statement sure to set some people off: God is all LOVING, therefore God cannot be all POWERFUL (by human definition) because Love and Power are complete opposites.