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For me, personally, it shows a tangible way of affection towards the Saint depicted in the icon. They are admirable and are worthy of being kissed, even if it's just an image that portrays them.
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Yeznik
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R.J.S said:
Well since the camera wasn't invented until the 19th century. We have paintings. And since people don't go around throwing pictures of their loved ones, such as a grand mother or grand father that has past away, they serve the purpose to remember them by. That the Saints, just like our grand parents, are real people who sacrified for God. Don't you sometime look back and wish a family member that has passed away was with you? Same principle.
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JJM said:
No can't say that I have
The problem is that could it not be construed that you are committing idolatry?
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JJM
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No because we aren't worshiping them affection doesn't equal worshipR.J.S said:No can't say that I have
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Yeznik
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From....
English translation by Father Garabed Kochakian
But our images do not resemble those idols, for ours speak of Christ and His elect; and this is not only the truth but it is attested to by the Scriptures. Therefore, let us declare what the historians or the commandments have taught to us.
For Moses by the divine command first made the model of images for the altar: two-winged cherubim, in human form, made of hammered gold and, above it, the Mercy Seat from which the Lord of Lords spoke. The apostle confirms this by testifying as he says: The cherubim of glory were overshadowing the Mercy Seat, which is itself the image of the great mystery. In the same way the curtain that the Lord said to make with multi-colored silks and images, and to embellish, in diverse manners, this veil which was of fine purple, red and azure; the turned linen of the veil was colored and were not these cherubim on the veil holy images?
Using this same example from cypress (wood), Solomon made the cherubim of the temple and covered them with gold; and he not only made the cherubim, (but also) palm trees and open flowers. And God did not disapprove of this, rather he called it the Temple of His Name. The inspired prophet Ezekiel, in the vision which he had, unlike the other prophets or oracles, but speaking with the divine revelation, declared, The Lord placed me on a high mountain as in a city and made me enter it. There I saw an altar and an awesome and marvelous man. Lightning flashed as bronze. He hovered above the 0door, holding a line of flax in his hand and a measuring reed, and he said to me: Son of man behold and remember all that is here , for I came to show them to you. And I saw the Temple painted with images all around, on the inside and on the outside, with cherubim and palms, from the floor to the ceiling. And not only was the Temple painted with images, but also the halls, the doors and the altar; and there were cherubim in the forms of humans two by two and palms in pairs which is the model of great wonders.
Thus, you who are ill in thought, what will you say about this? For I have spoken of the cherubim that Moses and Solomon had made by human hands; what do you consider these things that God showed them? Behold, it is clear that from the beginning, images were made for the honor and veneration of the divine glory. This is what the Old Testament has said.
A Seventh Century Apology for Images
by Vartabed ( Bishop) Sharsalar Vertanes Kertogh
But our images do not resemble those idols, for ours speak of Christ and His elect; and this is not only the truth but it is attested to by the Scriptures. Therefore, let us declare what the historians or the commandments have taught to us.
For Moses by the divine command first made the model of images for the altar: two-winged cherubim, in human form, made of hammered gold and, above it, the Mercy Seat from which the Lord of Lords spoke. The apostle confirms this by testifying as he says: The cherubim of glory were overshadowing the Mercy Seat, which is itself the image of the great mystery. In the same way the curtain that the Lord said to make with multi-colored silks and images, and to embellish, in diverse manners, this veil which was of fine purple, red and azure; the turned linen of the veil was colored and were not these cherubim on the veil holy images?
Using this same example from cypress (wood), Solomon made the cherubim of the temple and covered them with gold; and he not only made the cherubim, (but also) palm trees and open flowers. And God did not disapprove of this, rather he called it the Temple of His Name. The inspired prophet Ezekiel, in the vision which he had, unlike the other prophets or oracles, but speaking with the divine revelation, declared, The Lord placed me on a high mountain as in a city and made me enter it. There I saw an altar and an awesome and marvelous man. Lightning flashed as bronze. He hovered above the 0door, holding a line of flax in his hand and a measuring reed, and he said to me: Son of man behold and remember all that is here , for I came to show them to you. And I saw the Temple painted with images all around, on the inside and on the outside, with cherubim and palms, from the floor to the ceiling. And not only was the Temple painted with images, but also the halls, the doors and the altar; and there were cherubim in the forms of humans two by two and palms in pairs which is the model of great wonders.
Thus, you who are ill in thought, what will you say about this? For I have spoken of the cherubim that Moses and Solomon had made by human hands; what do you consider these things that God showed them? Behold, it is clear that from the beginning, images were made for the honor and veneration of the divine glory. This is what the Old Testament has said.
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CopticGirl
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I think you really need to understand the difference between worshipping, and respecting or adoring or honoring.
In the Coptic Orthodox Church worship is given to Jesus Christ and no one else. We are in no error.
God Bless.
In the Coptic Orthodox Church worship is given to Jesus Christ and no one else. We are in no error.
God Bless.
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Hi everyone.
I'm sorry I missed the debate. I have cleaned up the thread and non Coptic/non Oriental members are on notice: NO DEBATE BY NON COPTIC/NON ORIENTAL ORTHODOX MEMBERS WILL BE TOLERATED. Neither will any accusations, express or implied, that Coptic/Oriental members are not "really Christians" or that they are "idol worshippers". We, the mods of this forum, fully support our Coptic/Oriental brothers and sisters in this matter and trolling in here, will result in warnings.
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Hi everyone.
I'm sorry I missed the debate.
I have cleaned up the thread and non Coptic/non Oriental members are on notice: NO DEBATE BY NON COPTIC/NON ORIENTAL ORTHODOX MEMBERS WILL BE TOLERATED. Neither will any accusations, express or implied, that Coptic/Oriental members are not "really Christians" or that they are "idol worshippers". We, the mods of this forum, fully support our Coptic/Oriental brothers and sisters in this matter and trolling in here, will result in warnings. /mod hat off.
Carry on, everyone!
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to all the non-Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/Coptics, just a tiny bit of research would answer your questions as to why we venerate icons and not idolize them!
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SemStudent08
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I just figured I'd point out that Paul references greeting other Christians with a kiss of love several times in his Epistles. Its not exactly the same, but it may have played a part in the development of the kissing of objects and icons/images, especially those of people.
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Hi R.J.S,
I think before we can enter to understand why do they kiss, for example icons, it may be a good idea to address the issue of saints and the intercession of saints first.
Please forgive me, Im not familiar with your background, but my question is, are all Christians on the same level of spirituality or are there different levels of Spirituality? In the Coptic Orthodox, a saint is a person who has entered the deepest level of spirituality and achieved a very deep level of a closeness with God through their faithfulness.
There are many examples of this in the bible and one particular example is Elisha. He was a prophet and a saint because of his extraordinary closeness with God, after he died, Elishas bones performed a miracle. In 2 kings 13: 20-21, it says: Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year.So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.
Why did Elishas bones perform miracles? Its because God glorifies himself in his saints. Our Lord said, If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor. (Jn 12:26)
When you come so close to the light of Jesus, as the saints have come, the light of Jesus transfigures you totally. Why everyone then is not a Saint? Its because of the level of our obedience to God. The saints were so obedient to God in everything, even at the point of death and that is why he gives them a special honour. An example of this is in Revelations with the 24 elders, not only did they have crowns but were sitting on a throne as a special honour from God. And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God (Revelations 11: 16, Revelations 4: 4)
These crowns and thrones are not just for anyone, we see in comparison for example the faithful who are standing before Gods throne, After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God (Revelations 7: 9-11).
This brings us to the next point, if a Saint dies, does God consider them dead? Jesus answers this question about what happens to a person when he dies. The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her. Jesus answered and said to them, You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt 22: 23-32)
Two things Jesus mentions, first that we will become like angels. Of course, to God we are above the angels, But our role will be similar to those of the angels. St Paul says that, Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? (Hebrew 1: 14) Secondly, he mentions Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now we all know that they died long time ago, but Jesus tells us that they are living in the presence of God, because to God they are not dead. They are very much alive in Gods presence.
So then, when you serve a brother or sister in the name of Jesus on this earth, you will continue to serve your brothers and sisters who are on earth even after you die. The Saints our highest examples of those who served faithfully and were obedient to God, not only are they alive but they are part of your heavenly family. We, on earth, go to our brother or sisters in Christ and ask them to pray for us. Well, not only do we have a praying family on earth but we have a praying family in Heaven. The saints are your family in heaven. So when you ask their intercession, its the same as asking someone here to pray for you.
This brings us to the matter of icons. I believe Yeznik posted you a good article about how when we have pictures or icons of things that reflect the heavenly realm and the heavenly family, it reflects God himself. He gave you references to Exodus 25: 18. I will post you also an extract from a Coptic website, which I am unable to post here due to being a newbie:
God instructed Moses the Prophet to make a fiery serpent and put it on a pole (Num 21:8) for the people to look at and be healed from the snakebites. Also, our Lord referred to this serpent on the pole and considered it a symbol of His death on the cross (Jn 3:14) Now when Moses the Prophet made this carved image of the serpent it was not considered breaking the Second Commandment.
· God instructed Moses the prophet to make two cherubim of gold at the two ends of the mercy seat (Ex 25:18) This also was not considered breaking the Second Commandment.
· It was written about King Solomon, Then he carved all the walls of the temple all around withcarved images of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers The two doors were of olive wood; andhe carved on them figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold(1 King 6:29-31).
· It was written, Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell on earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until evening (Josh 7:6). Nobody ever suggested that Joshua the Prophet worshipped the Ark of the Covenant.
· Likewise, King Davids veneration of the Ark (2 Sam 6:12-15) was never viewed as idolatry. In fact, Michal who criticized her husband for belittling himself by dancing in front of the Ark was punished by the Lord (2 Sam 6:23).
Worship is reserved to the Holy Trinity alone. We do not honor the material from which icons are manufactured but rather the honor pertains to whatever the icon represent (Lord Jesus Christ, Virgin Mary, The cross, saints etc.).
Icons are commonly called windows to heaven for they help our thoughts ascend to God. Just as we are helped by the word to ascend beyond the word, so too we are led by the icons to rise above the icons. Correspondingly, just as God wants our hearing to be made holy through spiritual discourse, so too He wants our sight to be made holy via the holy icons. Iconography dates back to the apostolic era for we read
about St. Luke the Evangelist who painted an icon or more for St. Mary.
So we can conclude, that just like Christian music is a medium which elevates our thoughts to God and meditate on his great works, so also is art or iconography is a medium by which we meditate on God and his work in his Saints.
This brings us to the matter of kissing Icons in the Coptic Orthodox Church. As JJM mentioned before its a sign of affection. For example, here on earth, when you greet someone who you love, you would hug or kiss them. Equally, because the saints to God are alive and they are very much alive to us, we kiss them as a sign of affection. So if you kiss someone on earth, say your wife or husband or sister or brother, does that mean you are placing them higher than God? The answer is, since the Saints are your heavenly family, showing affection is the same as showing affection to your family.
I hope this explains it to you. But if you are unclear about some points or would like to discuss it further, I am more than happy to discuss it with you through private message or through a post.
Blessings and love
erini
I think before we can enter to understand why do they kiss, for example icons, it may be a good idea to address the issue of saints and the intercession of saints first.
Please forgive me, Im not familiar with your background, but my question is, are all Christians on the same level of spirituality or are there different levels of Spirituality? In the Coptic Orthodox, a saint is a person who has entered the deepest level of spirituality and achieved a very deep level of a closeness with God through their faithfulness.
There are many examples of this in the bible and one particular example is Elisha. He was a prophet and a saint because of his extraordinary closeness with God, after he died, Elishas bones performed a miracle. In 2 kings 13: 20-21, it says: Then Elisha died, and they buried him. And the raiding bands from Moab invaded the land in the spring of the year.So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders; and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.
Why did Elishas bones perform miracles? Its because God glorifies himself in his saints. Our Lord said, If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor. (Jn 12:26)
When you come so close to the light of Jesus, as the saints have come, the light of Jesus transfigures you totally. Why everyone then is not a Saint? Its because of the level of our obedience to God. The saints were so obedient to God in everything, even at the point of death and that is why he gives them a special honour. An example of this is in Revelations with the 24 elders, not only did they have crowns but were sitting on a throne as a special honour from God. And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God (Revelations 11: 16, Revelations 4: 4)
These crowns and thrones are not just for anyone, we see in comparison for example the faithful who are standing before Gods throne, After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God (Revelations 7: 9-11).
This brings us to the next point, if a Saint dies, does God consider them dead? Jesus answers this question about what happens to a person when he dies. The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her. Jesus answered and said to them, You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt 22: 23-32)
Two things Jesus mentions, first that we will become like angels. Of course, to God we are above the angels, But our role will be similar to those of the angels. St Paul says that, Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? (Hebrew 1: 14) Secondly, he mentions Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now we all know that they died long time ago, but Jesus tells us that they are living in the presence of God, because to God they are not dead. They are very much alive in Gods presence.
So then, when you serve a brother or sister in the name of Jesus on this earth, you will continue to serve your brothers and sisters who are on earth even after you die. The Saints our highest examples of those who served faithfully and were obedient to God, not only are they alive but they are part of your heavenly family. We, on earth, go to our brother or sisters in Christ and ask them to pray for us. Well, not only do we have a praying family on earth but we have a praying family in Heaven. The saints are your family in heaven. So when you ask their intercession, its the same as asking someone here to pray for you.
This brings us to the matter of icons. I believe Yeznik posted you a good article about how when we have pictures or icons of things that reflect the heavenly realm and the heavenly family, it reflects God himself. He gave you references to Exodus 25: 18. I will post you also an extract from a Coptic website, which I am unable to post here due to being a newbie:
God instructed Moses the Prophet to make a fiery serpent and put it on a pole (Num 21:8) for the people to look at and be healed from the snakebites. Also, our Lord referred to this serpent on the pole and considered it a symbol of His death on the cross (Jn 3:14) Now when Moses the Prophet made this carved image of the serpent it was not considered breaking the Second Commandment.
· God instructed Moses the prophet to make two cherubim of gold at the two ends of the mercy seat (Ex 25:18) This also was not considered breaking the Second Commandment.
· It was written about King Solomon, Then he carved all the walls of the temple all around withcarved images of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers The two doors were of olive wood; andhe carved on them figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold(1 King 6:29-31).
· It was written, Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell on earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until evening (Josh 7:6). Nobody ever suggested that Joshua the Prophet worshipped the Ark of the Covenant.
· Likewise, King Davids veneration of the Ark (2 Sam 6:12-15) was never viewed as idolatry. In fact, Michal who criticized her husband for belittling himself by dancing in front of the Ark was punished by the Lord (2 Sam 6:23).
Worship is reserved to the Holy Trinity alone. We do not honor the material from which icons are manufactured but rather the honor pertains to whatever the icon represent (Lord Jesus Christ, Virgin Mary, The cross, saints etc.).
Icons are commonly called windows to heaven for they help our thoughts ascend to God. Just as we are helped by the word to ascend beyond the word, so too we are led by the icons to rise above the icons. Correspondingly, just as God wants our hearing to be made holy through spiritual discourse, so too He wants our sight to be made holy via the holy icons. Iconography dates back to the apostolic era for we read
about St. Luke the Evangelist who painted an icon or more for St. Mary.
So we can conclude, that just like Christian music is a medium which elevates our thoughts to God and meditate on his great works, so also is art or iconography is a medium by which we meditate on God and his work in his Saints.
This brings us to the matter of kissing Icons in the Coptic Orthodox Church. As JJM mentioned before its a sign of affection. For example, here on earth, when you greet someone who you love, you would hug or kiss them. Equally, because the saints to God are alive and they are very much alive to us, we kiss them as a sign of affection. So if you kiss someone on earth, say your wife or husband or sister or brother, does that mean you are placing them higher than God? The answer is, since the Saints are your heavenly family, showing affection is the same as showing affection to your family.
I hope this explains it to you. But if you are unclear about some points or would like to discuss it further, I am more than happy to discuss it with you through private message or through a post.
Blessings and love
erini
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feo said:
Thats the point, in Christianity dead refers not just to the physical but the spiritual aspect of a person. So you are right they are not dead.
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