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King James supporters

Lady Bug

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Hi, I have a question for people who support the use of the KJV as their choice of Bible translation. It's been said that the KJV has been translated from the Textus Receptus. What makes the Textus Receptus more reliable, and from what did they translate before the King James came along?
 

ViaCrucis

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Hi, I have a question for people who support the use of the KJV as their choice of Bible translation. It's been said that the KJV has been translated from the Textus Receptus. What makes the Textus Receptus more reliable, and from what did they translate before the King James came along?

The Textus Receptus (TR) is a critical amalgam of earlier critical texts. In other words, you won't find the TR in existence before the 17th century, it was the result of scholarly work working from several important 16th century critical texts. Critical editions by Beza, Stephanus, and three editions of Erasmus. Each of these is, again, a critical edition, meaning they took what they considered the best manuscripts available at the time, compared them, chose what they believed to be the most reliable readings.

There were differences not only between these critical editions, but even between the various editions put out by Erasmus; and the TR came about by a scholarly synthesis of these critical editions.

William Tyndale is credited as the first to translate the Bible into Modern English, for his New Testament he relied principally on several editions of Erasmus' Greek text.

Prior to Tyndale, John Wycliffe translated the Bible into Middle English from the Latin Vulgate. Earlier English translations (Old English or Anglo-Saxon) made before the year 1000 were usually sparse, for example just the Psalms, or the Gospels, and were more than likely based on the Latin text.

The original Vulgate, translated by St. Jerome in the 5th century was a fresh translation from Greek manuscripts of the Byzantine tradition, and employed Hebrew texts which are long lost, as well as the LXX, Theodotian's Greek Old Testament. It was intended to replace the older Latin translations available, and present a fresh translation of the Bible into the common (vulgar) Latin of the people (hence "Vulgata" meaning "Common").

In the Syriac-speaking world, the choice version was the Peshitta, which for a long time was markedly different from the Bibles used elsewhere, having fewer New Testament books (it lacked 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation if I recall correctly). The Modern Peshitta is still in use among Christians of the Syriac tradition, though modern Arabic Bibles also exist for those who don't speak Syriac.

There were of course other Bibles as well, such as the Gothic translations used in ancient Germania, the Armenian Bible like the Peshitta was fairly different in the past (containing the spurious 3 Corinthians). Coptic translations have been in use among the indigenous Egyptian Church, but most Copts today speak Arabic even during their services. Etc and so forth.

But to answer your question directly, the TR isn't markedly superior, indeed it contains flaws. The TR isn't magic, it's just a 400+ year old critical edition, a good enough one for its time, but not perfect.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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pshun2404

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Great response...I like the Peshitta and have an English version and I actually like the Vulgate as well (minus Jerome's 32 errors...but none of them is perfect)..and for OT I go with the pre-JPS (traditional) Masoretic and the LXX for confirmation and clarity...the TR in those days was very limited (and as you said, somewhat of a hodge podge)...

The real question today is between the Majority Text renderings and the Criticl Text renderings

The MT represents nearly 20,000 samples...the CT only 5% and these differ dramatically between each other (each including different additions, deletions, editorial markings, and more...and form the basis for the other hodge podge called the Westcott/Hort text)

KJV is okay for it's time...but not THE authoritative text...The original RSV is the best CT version in my opinion...but the NASB is also good..,since we are mostly sharing opinions

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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As long as all the Texts are viewed as the errant, fallible, and non-inspired Scriptures, ie, great aids, all's well.


So are you saying we cannot trust what we have? Or do you have a preference?

I think the Byzantine is the most supported and most consistent so I go with that...it always seems to agree with the Peshitta in places sometimes obscured (like the ending of Mark...the inclusion of the Pericope, and more)...it only differs in the number of books because it is older in its original form...in the original church for about 3 centuries 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude were considered spurious (Revelations was about a 50-50)

But if you took these 5 books right out of our modern Bibles this would not disturb a commonly accepted doctrine or matter of faith...except maybe the pre-tribbers eschatology...

The every word is inspired concept allegedly applies to the autographs and the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets...but I will go with the Majority Text unless the Lord tells me no. I think the Holy Spirit engineered that result...totally just my opinion

Paul
 
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shturt678

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So are you saying we cannot trust what we have? Or do you have a preference?

:):) The veiled paradox where we can all speak in unity in English regarding the Biblical Texts, yet diverse to extremely diverse in the interpretations of these Texts. Anyone trusting their Church's, or their own, interpretation is already receiving the "delusions" at IIThess.2:11, 12 where their cerebral cortex is being extremely affected. :blush: The preference is to approach any interpretation scrutinizing the Context, verses the Texts, using all the tools that God has left us interpreting from the ancient languages forward to the English rather than backwards as pervasively done today. :thumbsup:

I think the Byzantine is the most supported and most consistent so I go with that...it always seems to agree with the Peshitta in places sometimes obscured (like the ending of Mark...the inclusion of the Pericope, and more)...it only differs in the number of books because it is older in its original form...in the original church for about 3 centuries 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude were considered spurious (Revelations was about a 50-50)

But if you took these 5 books right out of our modern Bibles this would not disturb a commonly accepted doctrine or matter of faith...except maybe the pre-tribbers eschatology...

The every word is inspired concept allegedly applies to the autographs and the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets...but I will go with the Majority Text unless the Lord tells me no. I think the Holy Spirit engineered that result...totally just my opinion

Paul
 
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DamianWarS

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Lady Bug said:
Hi, I have a question for people who support the use of the KJV as their choice of Bible translation. It's been said that the KJV has been translated from the Textus Receptus. What makes the Textus Receptus more reliable, and from what did they translate before the King James came along?

The first edition of the TR was made in 1516 about 100 years before the KJV. What allowed the TR is be produced was the invention of the printing press which was the "Internet" of its day and regarded as the most influential invention of the second millennium. The printing press was invented in 1456 and spread across Western Europe fully by 1500 and Erasmus was able to use the printing press to produce the first printed critical edition greek text of the NT. This allowed many copies to be produced and available for scholarly research. The KJV is based on the 1550 edition of the TR which I think is the 5th or 6th edition of it. The TR is so popular because it was the first of its kind and before the TR there was no printed critical editions of the Greek texts and what they relied on would be through handwritten manuscripts that were not as easy to come by and much harder to reproduce. At its time there were a lot of translations based on the TR and the KJV is just the most popular but the only reason why something like the KJV could be produced is because of the readily available printed TR. The TR is a product that emerged out of invention of the printing press and without the printing press it would have never come. Wikipedia was never around in the 70s because the technology wasn't available but something like Wikipedia was an inevitable product of the Internet and it is the same way with the TR as it was also an inevitable product of the printing press and if Erasmus didn't start it someone else would have and the KJV would have been based that version. The TR itself is not magical or special in anyway it just reflects the technology of its day to what was available in its day... Erasmus was just first smart guy to think of doing it.
 
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