• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Keeping Feasts

payattention

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2005
731
4
69
✟903.00
Faith
SDA
I noticed a reference to the Feasts in the room down the hall and I thought I would begin a thread on that subject in this debate room.

I don't keep the Feasts and don't believe we should. For the same reasons I am surprised that many of those who refuse to observe the Feasts somehow believe that the system of tithing is still in place. Both the Feasts and Tithing are attached to the same system. We know that tithing was established as the support system for the Levitical priesthood which was abolished with the death of Jesus Christ. This would mean that there is no longer a need for the tithing regime. Those who defend tithing often refer to Christ's statement regarding the tithing of mint and anise -- "these ought ye to have done and not to leave the other undone." Of course, they fail to note that this comment was made before the Levitical priesthood was abolished on the cross. That aside, we also know that Paul kept the Feasts. If we are going to use practice in the New Testament to justify holding on to the Tithing regime Paul's practice of the Feasts at a much later date than the record of tithing in the gospels should make the keeping of the Feasts equally binding as tithing. It is a question of both or neither.
 

SassySDA

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2005
926
19
71
OH
✟1,169.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
payattention said:
I noticed a reference to the Feasts in the room down the hall and I thought I would begin a thread on that subject in this debate room.

I don't keep the Feasts and don't believe we should. For the same reasons I am surprised that many of those who refuse to observe the Feasts somehow believe that the system of tithing is still in place. Both the Feasts and Tithing are attached to the same system. We know that tithing was established as the support system for the Levitical priesthood which was abolished with the death of Jesus Christ. This would mean that there is no longer a need for the tithing regime. Those who defend tithing often refer to Christ's statement regarding the tithing of mint and anise -- "these ought ye to have done and not to leave the other undone." Of course, they fail to note that this comment was made before the Levitical priesthood was abolished on the cross. That aside, we also know that Paul kept the Feasts. If we are going to use practice in the New Testament to justify holding on to the Tithing regime Paul's practice of the Feasts at a much later date than the record of tithing in the gospels should make the keeping of the Feasts equally binding as tithing. It is a question of both or neither.

Who pays your church's bills? Who keeps the water, light, and heat on? Our tithes go to upkeep of our church, our "new" building fund, missionary work, etc.

I don't need scripture to tell me that tithing is a good thing to do.

If you feel it isn't scriptural and you don't want to do it, then don't do it.
 
Upvote 0
H

HoneyDew

Guest
SassySDA said:
Who pays your church's bills? Who keeps the water, light, and heat on? Our tithes go to upkeep of our church, our "new" building fund, missionary work, etc.

I don't need scripture to tell me that tithing is a good thing to do.

If you feel it isn't scriptural and you don't want to do it, then don't do it.


To all: Try not to make it a personal thing about who wants to pay and who wants to not pay tithes. Let us reason together. We can all put things on the table and go through, using Scriptures and commonsense, and work through ideas. It might work. :)
 
Upvote 0

SassySDA

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2005
926
19
71
OH
✟1,169.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
HoneyDew said:
To all: Try not to make it a personal thing about who wants to pay and who wants to not pay tithes. Let us reason together. We can all put things on the table and go through, using Scriptures and commonsense, and work through ideas. It might work. :)

Just in case you thought I was being "smart" by asking who pays his church's bills, I wasn't. That was a legitimate question. Maybe they have a way of doing that, that I am unaware of.

I was also being sincere when I said that if he could not find scripture to back tithing up, and he didn't want to do it, then don't do it.
 
Upvote 0
H

HoneyDew

Guest
SassySDA said:
Just in case you thought I was being "smart" by asking who pays his church's bills, I wasn't. That was a legitimate question. Maybe they have a way of doing that, that I am unaware of.

I was also being sincere when I said that if he could not find scripture to back tithing up, and he didn't want to do it, then don't do it.

Thanks, Sassy, for clarifying. Being aware of the ... history, shall we say, I thought it was one of those reactions to Pay's post. I was hoping to be wrong because I think this has the potential to be an insightful thread.

I think I will wait until folks get out of church so I can hear more of what others think regarding paying tithes. I have thought of this in recent days: are we held to pay that 10 percent or not? Can the church and conference (and all under the auspices of the GC) rely on our goodwill for their upkeep? Are we unbound from a specific tithing system, or are we as Christians (or as some prefer, spiritual Israel) still bound under that covenant? What does Scripture say?
 
Upvote 0

SassySDA

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2005
926
19
71
OH
✟1,169.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
payattention said:
Why do you believe others need Scripture in order to worship on Sunday?

Because the Sabbath is a commandment. If they chose to disregard that and worship God on a day other than the one he set aside for them, that's their decision, as is tithing...it's one's own personal decision as no one forces us to do that. They might encourage it, but they don't force it, because they can't. I just got a picture in my head of people being bonked over the head, or turned upside down and shaken till the change falls out of their pockets...like a comic strip. ROFL, sometimes I kill me.

Please understand that I don't browbeat anyone over the Sabbath. As I have seen some Adventists do. It is a commandment of God, I don't know how much clearer God can make it. I testify to it, I witness for God and speak of the Sabbath, but I don't browbeat anyone trying to get them to come over to Saturday worship.

Paying tithes is not one of God's ten commandments. I do tithe though, (not always a whole lot, because 10% of 0 is 0, and being on a fixed income, by the end of the month it's usually 0), because it is joyful to me, it makes me happy to "give back" to God for what He has given me. This is simply one thing I PERSONALLY wouldn't feel the need to have scripture backing me up as to why I do it, that's all I'm saying.
 
Upvote 0

payattention

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2005
731
4
69
✟903.00
Faith
SDA
SassySDA said:
is simply one thing I PERSONALLY wouldn't feel the need to have scripture backing me up as to why I do it, that's all I'm saying.
You are confusing 'tithing' with church support. Allow me to suggest that you use this small exchange as an example. Because I stated that tithing is not binding upon Christians you came to the wrong conclusion that I do not believe Christians should support the voluntary religious institutions to which they belong. Think about that.
 
Upvote 0

SassySDA

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2005
926
19
71
OH
✟1,169.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
HoneyDew said:
Thanks, Sassy, for clarifying. Being aware of the ... history, shall we say, I thought it was one of those reactions to Pay's post. I was hoping to be wrong because I think this has the potential to be an insightful thread.

I think I will wait until folks get out of church so I can hear more of what others think regarding paying tithes. I have thought of this in recent days: are we held to pay that 10 percent or not? Can the church and conference (and all under the auspices of the GC) rely on our goodwill for their upkeep? Are we unbound from a specific tithing system, or are we as Christians (or as some prefer, spiritual Israel) still bound under that covenant? What does Scripture say?

Not a problem.

I really don't know the answers to your questions, which are good ones. Like I said, I do it because it makes me happy to do so. As far as being "bound" to a certain amount any longer, I really couldn't say.
 
Upvote 0
T

TrustAndObey

Guest
payattention said:
It is about the feasts. I was showing a logical reason why one should keep the feast if one believes that tithing as a regime still is binding.

Another poster named Statrei brought up this exact same argument in another thread. I think the thread was called God's Law VS Moses' Law...but I'm not positive.

It's my belief that not all of Mosaic Law was abolished. There were certain laws about having intercourse with animals that I'm pretty sure still apply. :)

Tithing doesn't have anything to do with keeping the feasts, and tithing did not point to the coming Messiah. Ceremonial law was nailed to the cross (sacrifices, feasts, etc). Galatians 3:19. Tithing was not put in place because of transgression.

But alas, I'll respectfully bow out of this conversation since I already had it with another poster and since the two topics really don't have anything to do with each other.
 
Upvote 0

payattention

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2005
731
4
69
✟903.00
Faith
SDA
TrustAndObey said:
Another poster named Statrei brought up this exact same argument in another thread. I think the thread was called God's Law VS Moses' Law...but I'm not positive.
I'll look it up later. As the saying goes, "There is nothing new under the sun." The argument came to me as I read your post to Tall, so this is interesting.
 
Upvote 0

payattention

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2005
731
4
69
✟903.00
Faith
SDA
TrustAndObey said:
Tithing doesn't have anything to do with keeping the feasts, and tithing did not point to the coming Messiah. Ceremonial law was nailed to the cross (sacrifices, feasts, etc). Galatians 3:19. Tithing was not put in place because of transgression.

But alas, I'll respectfully bow out of this conversation since I already had it with another poster and since the two topics really don't have anything to do with each other.
It's a pity because you have woefully misinterpreted that passage concerning the law being added because of transgression. I am amazed at the number of truth-seeking Christians who prefer to stop studying an issue because it messes up the neat package they have already accepted.
 
Upvote 0

payattention

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2005
731
4
69
✟903.00
Faith
SDA
TrustAndObey said:
Another poster named Statrei brought up this exact same argument in another thread. I think the thread was called God's Law VS Moses' Law...but I'm not positive.
You were close. I found the post you were probably talking about but it is different from what I am saying here. Here it is:
statrei said:
This part of the study caught my attention because it suggests that the laws regulating the priesthood are temporary. I tend to agree and I think we would all agree that the OT priesthood was replaced by the priesthood of all believers. Would those temporary laws include the tithing system that was established for the support of the OT priesthood?
It appears you were responding to this rather than to what I posted here. This post appears to be an attempt to regard tithing as temporary. I am saying that it was abolished along with the priesthood it was designed to support. But I only make that argument because of Jesus statement about tithing. The crux of my argument, which has been ignored to this point, is that Paul kept the Feasts and he did so after the death of Jesus Christ. This leads to my final argument that if we justify tithing because Christ did not condemn it we almost obligate ourselves to follow Paul's example.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,779
6,157
Visit site
✟1,112,306.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A. This may bother some, but there is no direct scripture regarding tithing 10 percent of your income in the NT after Jesus' death on the cross. Payattention is quite right about that. The justification for it is almost always based on the OT passages, and the idea that we now have simply switched what we are supporting. While this may be a good means of encouraging regular giving, and there is nothing wrong with that, I do wonder if it is best to say it is a scriptural mandate at this time. That may be hard to prove. Now having said that, the Israelites if they actually followed all of the regulations gave quite a bit more than 10 percent. And Paul's encouragment is to give liberally in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9.

B. Some seem to see more than one actual tithe in the OT, one tied to the priesthood, and one to the feasts.

C. Yes, Paul kept the feasts, or at least showed up for some. There might be debate about how worried he was about them. Part of his reasoning for being at the feasts might have been because he know that many people would be gathered there...a built in witnessing opportunity. Of course, we could also say that was why it was his custom to go to the synagogue to reason with the Jews every Sabbath...But the point is, it is not precisely clear that he kept all of the temple regulations in every way. And it is clear that he did not endorse them for everyone. He argued against gentiles being circumcised or having to keep any of it. So the picture is clear in one regard--his feast keeping did not make it binding on all.

He also appeared to take what seems like a Nazarite vow, etc.

I will give more views on the feasts themselves later.

For now I want to look at what I think was happening in Colossians 2.

I agree that Christ did away with parts of the system of sacrifice, or perhaps better put, He removed the need for them, bieng the sacrifice. But I am not sure I agree with an interpretation of Colossians 2 that identifies the "handwriting of ordinances" as the ceremonial law.

I have felt for years that the church sells Jesus short in this passage. The "handwriting" is a reference to a statement of debt, a reference to a record of wrong. (For those interested, see my textual reasons for this at the end of the post)

Since Jesus was said by Paul to have "Become" sin for us, it is clear that in fact the handwriting is a reference to Jesus himself bearing our sin on the cross, paying the price for us. I mean, if we think about it...what was nailed to the cross? Jesus.

This is quite a bit more in line with the context of the passage.

COL 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

in Verse 11 it states that we were circumcised, putting off the sinful nature, and then in verse 12, we were buried with him through faith.

It is referring to the very essential points of the gospel Jesus died to cancel our sin, and we participated in this experience, dying and then living in new life. It echoes Romans 6. Then he goes on to elaborate on that resurrection. He says we were DEAD in our transgressions and sins. Ie, we were under a death sentance because of our record of sins against us. Now it says he cancelled the written code. This is that certificate of debt...the debt he paid with his life. in fact the phrase itself occurs within the context of the last part of verse 13...HE FORGAVE US ALL OUR SINS. Verse 14 continues the parallel thought..ie...how did he forgive us our sins? By paying them in the form of Jesus when He was nailed to the cross!

All one need do is look at what actually WAS nailed to the cross--Our SAVIOR!

Now I have trouble saying the ordinances are the ceremonial law...or those parts of the ceremonial law that dealt with sacrifices....first because of the textual evidence that it is a certificate of debt. But also,
how did that stand against us? It helped them to see Jesus.

For those who think it was the moral law...how did the moral law stand opposed to us? It was not the law that was the problem. It was our sin. Get rid of the sin and the law has no problem with us! And that is exactly what Jesus did. he paid the DEBT of our sin, freeing us from condemnation of the law.

In light of this, if we were to tranlsate the passage anew we might say...

COL 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Strangely enough the only Bible I have seen translate this correctly is the Jerusalem Bible...a Catholic Bible that , in the English version at least, is derived from a French tranlation of the text.

The only thing contextually that backs up the idea that it is the ceremonial law is the verses following directly on that passage.....


COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

In other words, Paul goes on to apply the teaching of forgiveness. Since Christ fulfilled the laws demands, the ceremonial law was no longer the way to understand God, but focusing on Christ was.

So this is not opposed to the view that it was speaking of our debt of sin.

In fact, we must remember that Paul is here fighting against false teachers who are making much of the ceremonial law, but diminishing Christ. He begins the whole passage with a warning to cling to Christ but avoid empty philosophies which urge strict observance, but have no power.

COL 2:6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

COL 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

Even the verses referencing the ceremonial law and the sabbath feast days etc. refer to this false system the teachers were trying to put in place...

COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

In other words, the whole passage was an appeal to put Christ first..as in fact is the whole letter of Colossians. They were depeding on knowledge, and strict observance rather than on Christ.

This understanding of the passage is not the traditional one in Adventism. I am aware of that. But in fact it fits more with the text, and a few verses later you have a clear removal of the ceremonial law anyway. And on what basis? On the basis that the ceremonial law was the SHADOW, and Christ the REALITY. Which is the very thing this was showing. Christ was the perfect sacrifice, not REMOVING the law, but paying the debt that the law demanded. So the shadow pointing to all of that was no longer necessary.


-------------------------------

Textual note on the translation of χειρογραφον τοις δογμασιν

Strongs references of the term handwriting of ordinances...

χειρόγραφον
cheirographon
khi-rog'-raf-on
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.

Literally it is simply a combination of the word hand, cheir, and the verb write...grapho. It meant a handwritten form, legal document of bond. it is not apparently a reference to a concept of law, be it moral, ceremonial or otherwise, , but a literal legal document.


and the second word...

G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.

Derived from dokeo, to think, imagine, etc.

Thayers defines dogma as decree, statute, ordinance.

So it is a legal form, perhaps of bond.

Even the commentators in the NIV Study Bible correctly translated the word in their notes--but then mystifyingly went on to say the exact opposite....

14. Written code. A business term, meaning a certificate of indebtedness in the debtor's handwritting. Paul uses it as a designation for the mosaic law, with all its regulations, under which everyone is a debtor to God.

Their textual work was fine, but then they bent it to fit their idea. It was referring to the debt, our sin, which was placed on Christ and nailed to the cross. Even in the case of debts the law is not changed that caused the debt to be owed, but rather the debt is PAID! .
 
Upvote 0