Keep your mind in hell and despair not?

Nathaniel Red said:

No. I haven't gone to church in awhile. Or today. I used to feel hopeful that It could help me, but even with the best church I've been to, it just has been painful and uncomfortable.

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I didn’t mean go to Church necessarily, but these questions might be better for a priest you can actually sit down and talk to.

Nathaniel, I’m just a catechumen but the Prayer of St. Marcarius the Great has been such a comfort to me and I thought it might be possible you might find it helpful as well.

Melily said:

Nathaniel, I’m just a catechumen but the Prayer of St. Marcarius the Great has been such a comfort to me and I thought it might be possible you might find it helpful as well.

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“Lord have mercy as You know and as You will” (St. Macarius) is almost spot on to “keep your mind in hell and despair not,” I believe. However, Fr. Matt may be able to correct me if I’m wrong. That is one of my favorite prayers.

Nathaniel Red said:

If I did end up in hell, how would I ever not despair or gnash my teeth? How do I hope for heaven without leaving hell in the process?

"Keep your mind in hell and despair not"

I've heard this phrase a lot, but I'm unsure how to apply it in my life. I constantly feel hopeless every day, and no amount of philosophy, prayer, or anything else has seemed to help.

Why should I have hope in a better future when I have a broken family, failed relationships, a country and world that are falling apart, no good job for the foreseeable future, constant terrible spiritual warfare, and I'm unable to find any stable community in church or otherwise? I still believe and ive found good explanations against nihilism, but I'm every second of every day feeling a deep painful hopelessness which I end up filling with distractions and addictions. Its such a heavy burden I can't wake up most mornings, especially for church, I feel like I'm just waiting out my death on the off chance that something will change.

Every time I had someone to hope in, I placed everything in them, and it was taken away. I'm not sure I even have the energy to place my hope in someone else. It all feels pointless, even though almost all of my religious questions have been answered. I have zero motivation or care. Despair has been my hardest fight in life.

I dont even have a question anymore, I just don't know what to do. I'm completely drained of life.

[EDIT: I noticed a prayer that says to the theotokos that we put our hope in her. I dont understand this, not in an academic or philosophical way, but what does this mean in a personal sense?]

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I'm not EO, but maybe I can make a reasoned comment:

This life is not for this life.

Spend your time getting to know God, to love him with all your heart. When your satisfaction begins to rest on the fact that God is doing all this for his own sake, and that he is completely satisfied with the results —and that concerning you, HE is your desire (whether you feel it or not, it IS what you are made for), your perspective will change.

This life is not about you —it is about Christ.

Nathaniel Red said:

If I did end up in hell, how would I ever not despair or gnash my teeth? How do I hope for heaven without leaving hell in the process?

"Keep your mind in hell and despair not"

I've heard this phrase a lot, but I'm unsure how to apply it in my life. I constantly feel hopeless every day, and no amount of philosophy, prayer, or anything else has seemed to help.

Why should I have hope in a better future when I have a broken family, failed relationships, a country and world that are falling apart, no good job for the foreseeable future, constant terrible spiritual warfare, and I'm unable to find any stable community in church or otherwise? I still believe and ive found good explanations against nihilism, but I'm every second of every day feeling a deep painful hopelessness which I end up filling with distractions and addictions. Its such a heavy burden I can't wake up most mornings, especially for church, I feel like I'm just waiting out my death on the off chance that something will change.

Every time I had someone to hope in, I placed everything in them, and it was taken away. I'm not sure I even have the energy to place my hope in someone else. It all feels pointless, even though almost all of my religious questions have been answered. I have zero motivation or care. Despair has been my hardest fight in life.

I dont even have a question anymore, I just don't know what to do. I'm completely drained of life.

[EDIT: I noticed a prayer that says to the theotokos that we put our hope in her. I dont understand this, not in an academic or philosophical way, but what does this mean in a personal sense?]

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I understand this all too well. What I have found is that I am constantly looking at my performance as the measuring stick of God's love instead of focusing on the love, mercy, and beauty of our Christ! Perfect love casts out fear. We fear because we are not perfected in love, and I (speaking for myself only) am not perfected in love because my eyes are not fully on Christ, but like you, on the world around me and my performance for God.

In the middle of a raging storm, the child finds comfort in his father's arms because he knows his father is there and will care for him. Is our loving heavenly Father any less good? Let us, you and I, strive to turn our eyes upon the One who loved us unto death.

Nathaniel Red said:

I dont really per se need to apply it in my life, I just thought it should help since I feel despair continually, and ive experienced hell, but maybe there's more worldly ideas that would help?

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I think the idea that Gods presence is either experienced as refining and good, or experienced as destructive and bad, depending on the individual, that’s an interesting (and so far as I’m aware orthodox) thing. In some real sense, we author a lot of our own pain.

Or to simplify, never underestimate your own ability to make something worse than it is. That’s an empowering idea too, because if we can so easily make matters worse, then we can make them better too.

Nathaniel Red said:

but maybe there's more worldly ideas that would help?

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I think so too. Eating right, sleep, talk therapy, maybe if it helps, there are Bible verses that help to point the way toward what we see as “worldly” aids to alleviate suffering. C. S. Lewis once wrote “God likes matter, He invented it.” So we shouldn’t scoff at worldly seeming ideas or consider ourselves above this wicked world, we want to belong here too on some level.

Recently I heard how in social experiments, even being rejected by an outliers group like the KKK or white nationalist party causes upset in regular people. We are hardwire for things like family, job satisfaction, friendship and romantic love. They’re wrapped up in affirming who we are and acceptance after all.

Nathaniel Red said:

The one which might be from God, told me besides other things that I would get back with my ex at a specific time in some years. Am I supposed to hope in that?

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Without knowing the people involved it’s hard to say, but as a general rule I’d write not to hold out hope for any one person. I feel that robs people of joy and causes an unrealistic field of vision around the opposite sex, not only does that one person get an invincible aura, but then we start overlooking or misunderstanding the wider world of people who you might be happy with.

Nathaniel Red said:

This was insightful, thank you. Though i dont know where exactly I should be emotionally focusing myself instead then.

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You’re welcome buddy. One of the most helpful things I’ve found is to not gravitate towards many Christian saying that the community use to set our standards low. For example, have you ever heard “Jesus doesn’t promise us success or happiness, he promises that we’ll suffer!” Or maybe “Jesus spoke more about hell than about heaven!” “Take up your cross daily!”

I’m not meaning to say these things aren’t right or true or biblical, rather I’m saying for some personalities, and at some points in our lives, these sayings are like toxic shock. They’re killing people in the church.

Only you know if these sayings are negative when they get into your headspace, and if they are I’d urge that you practice some of that newfangled self care that fruity too-tie liberal people are always banging on about.

You probably need basics my friend.

Secure job. Friends. Exercise. A solid non religious hobby (just for the sake of depressurising your stress.)

I know lots of this seems general or even vague, but when practiced things like diet and exercise work wonders on people. We just need some faith that they actually work, even if it feels a bit naff getting into them.

St. Peter of Damascus preached that we should not despair.

St. Peter of Damascus: "Do not Despair: If You Fall, Rise Up!"


St. Peter of Damascus:


Saint Peter of Damascus and His Feast On February 9 | ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY THEN AND NOW

St Tikhon of Zadonsk struggled a lot with, and overcame, feelings of despair.

Here's something I wrote on this saying while in seminary: Jesse Dominick. On the Word to St. Silouan, “Keep Thy Mind in Hell and Despair Not”

Sometimes our despair can get so bad that it feels like we are literally in hell. God, through St. Silouan, recommends that even though we are in hell, we should not doubt our salvation. Even though we feel we are worthy of hell, God loves us more than we can understand and will take us to heaven eventually.

This saying so powerful that it seems that if we remained in hell, God would allow us to be happy there. This shows us that hell is not a possibility in God's opinion, that He has unlimited power to do good. Even more so, God's Mercy is so great and pleasing in hell that one would not want to leave and go to heaven; an experience much like the one that the three apostles had at The Lord's Transfiguration/ Taboric Light.

IoanC said:

Even more so, God's Mercy is so great and pleasing in hell that one would not want to leave and go to heaven; an experience much like the one that the three apostles had at The Lord's Transfiguration/ Taboric Light.

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except that if anyone ends up in hell, God’s mercy is what they hate. mercy is not always pleasing.

ArmyMatt said:

except that if anyone ends up in hell, God’s mercy is what they hate. mercy is not always pleasing.

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Well, you end up in hell because you sinned against God. God's Mercy is not available such that one can hate it in hell. Hell is a place of eternal punishment. So, to make it clear, it is not permissible to hate God in hell since sin is no longer possible there.

I've heard the idea that hell is God's love experienced backwards. That God's energies are in hell as love for those who are being punished. But they cannot accept His love, making their hatred the source of their suffering. No, God does not love a sinner and does not offer His Grace to him/her. Hell is a state of being consciously punished by God for your sin. The source of punishment is God's hatred, actually.

ArmyMatt said:

except that if anyone ends up in hell, God’s mercy is what they hate. mercy is not always pleasing.

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Yes, as Romans 1 attests.

Mark Quayle said:

Yes, as Romans 1 attests.

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Yes, but hating God's Mercy is a sin which is recorded by God. You are not allowed to sin in hell and there is no Mercy in hell. As well, God's Mercy does not flow endlessly and aimlessly; it is selective and predetermined.

St. Silouan had a direct experience of God just like the apostles had on Mount Tabor. This sort experience was forced upon them; they were overwhelmed and could not use their will, but remained simply amazed. For a moment, they were completely saved, as well. These show that God is All-Good and could save someone by force. Whether He will do it remains a mystery. At this point, you would not want to hate God again because what happens is that you are beginning to look like an evil force that simply fights God for the sake of it.

God will do everything possible to save a soul. God wants that all are saved, and not only that, but He will also work on it. So, if someone remains in hell, it is not God's wish whatsoevever, but the sinner's wish. Only pure evil can probably go to hell, and only they understand themselves as such and know who they are.

IoanC said:

Well, you end up in hell because you sinned against God. God's Mercy is not available such that one can hate it in hell. Hell is a place of eternal punishment. So, to make it clear, it is not permissible to hate God in hell since sin is no longer possible there.

I've heard the idea that hell is God's love experienced backwards. That God's energies are in hell as love for those who are being punished. But they cannot accept His love, making their hatred the source of their suffering. No, God does not love a sinner and does not offer His Grace to him/her. Hell is a state of being consciously punished by God for your sin. The source of punishment is God's hatred, actually.

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no, hell is God’s love rejected by the unrepentant sinner, since love in the face of unrepentant sin is experienced as wrath and judgment. God’s grace is omnipresent, so it’s also in hell.

Mark Quayle said:

Yes, as Romans 1 attests.

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and the beginning of John’s Gospel.

Ok, I will stop here. I don't want to fuel a never-ending argument about hell.

My main point was actually that there is infinite hope. That God's Grace is stronger than sin.

IoanC said:

Yes, but hating God's Mercy is a sin which is recorded by God. You are not allowed to sin in hell and there is no Mercy in hell. As well, God's Mercy does not flow endlessly and aimlessly; it is selective and predetermined.

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Where is it said that you are not allowed to sin in hell? I agree, however, that his mercy is not aimless. I don't say his mercy is predetermined, but that because of his mercy he chooses certain ones to whom to show mercy.

IoanC said:

St. Silouan had a direct experience of God just like the apostles had on Mount Tabor. This sort experience was forced upon them; they were overwhelmed and could not use their will, but remained simply amazed. For a moment, they were completely saved, as well. These show that God is All-Good and could save someone by force. Whether He will do it remains a mystery. At this point, you would not want to hate God again because what happens is that you are beginning to look like an evil force that simply fights God for the sake of it.

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I don't know what you are trying to say here. It doesn't sound like scripture, but speculation.

Also, not sure what you mean by 'save someone by force'. Is that your way of saying "save someone without consulting them or asking their permission"? I do agree that is how we are regenerated (born-again). But I don't call that 'forcing'.

IoanC said:

God will do everything possible to save a soul. God wants that all are saved, and not only that, but He will also work on it. So, if someone remains in hell, it is not God's wish whatsoevever, but the sinner's wish. Only pure evil can probably go to hell, and only they understand themselves as such and know who they are.

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You sound like God is under the constraints of probability --even chance. Not so. Things don't "happen to" God. Nothing is outside his control.

Mark Quayle said:

Where is it said that you are not allowed to sin in hell? I agree, however, that his mercy is not aimless. I don't say his mercy is predetermined, but that because of his mercy he chooses certain ones to whom to show mercy.

I don't know what you are trying to say here. It doesn't sound like scripture, but speculation.

Also, not sure what you mean by 'save someone by force'. Is that your way of saying "save someone without consulting them or asking their permission"? I do agree that is how we are regenerated (born-again). But I don't call that 'forcing'.

You sound like God is under the constraints of probability --even chance. Not so. Things don't "happen to" God. Nothing is outside his control.

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I agree. Only God knows what He will do and why. His control is absolute. Whatever He creates or sets into motion has an exact purpose. There is nothing that is not God's deliberate will.

IoanC said:

My main point was actually that there is infinite hope. That God's Grace is stronger than sin.

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of course. that’s just not the issue