Keep your mind in hell and despair not?

[Nathaniel Red]

If I did end up in hell, how would I ever not despair or gnash my teeth? How do I hope for heaven without leaving hell in the process?

"Keep your mind in hell and despair not"

I've heard this phrase a lot, but I'm unsure how to apply it in my life. I constantly feel hopeless every day, and no amount of philosophy, prayer, or anything else has seemed to help.

Why should I have hope in a better future when I have a broken family, failed relationships, a country and world that are falling apart, no good job for the foreseeable future, constant terrible spiritual warfare, and I'm unable to find any stable community in church or otherwise? I still believe and ive found good explanations against nihilism, but I'm every second of every day feeling a deep painful hopelessness which I end up filling with distractions and addictions. Its such a heavy burden I can't wake up most mornings, especially for church, I feel like I'm just waiting out my death on the off chance that something will change.

Every time I had someone to hope in, I placed everything in them, and it was taken away. I'm not sure I even have the energy to place my hope in someone else. It all feels pointless, even though almost all of my religious questions have been answered. I have zero motivation or care. Despair has been my hardest fight in life.

I dont even have a question anymore, I just don't know what to do. I'm completely drained of life.

[EDIT: I noticed a prayer that says to the theotokos that we put our hope in her. I dont understand this, not in an academic or philosophical way, but what does this mean in a personal sense?]

 

[Cormack]

I think one of the great anxiety mistakes that Christian’s make is to live in our heads and overemphasis our ways of seeing life.

“Living in hell” is an unhappy, self harming state of mind, the idea that we could do that and also not despair doesn’t seem doable.

We can overthink spiritual things and our religious means of understanding the world because, in short, we’ve doped ourselves into believing we can’t think too much about these things.

“Eternity is at stake!” “What could be more important than this!” Points like these trip us up and land believers in an unhappy cycle of neurotic thinking. Think of the many embattled posters who spend hours fretting over the unforgivable sin, maybe the overemphasis of your thoughts aren’t so different.

You should isolate some of your needs in which you’re deficient my friend. Then take stock of what’s keeping you from those things. Maybe it’s romantic or friendship oriented, an absence of work life or some of the other things you’ve shared.

The board and users should be able to help too. Be strong, but defo escape hell.

 

[ArmyMatt]

as far as I can tell, you keep your mind in hell knowing you are a sinner, yet also knowing that God’s mercy is greater than that. that way you don’t sin (because you see where your sins lead) and you don’t despair despite that (because you know God).

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think one of the great anxiety mistakes that Christian’s make is to live in our heads and overemphasis our ways of seeing life.

“Living in hell” is an unhappy, self harming state of mind, the idea that we could do that and also not despair doesn’t seem doable.

We can overthink spiritual things and our religious means of understanding the world because, in short, we’ve doped ourselves into believing we can’t think too much about these things.

“Eternity is at stake!” “What could be more important than this!” Points like these trip us up and land believers in an unhappy cycle of neurotic thinking. Think of the many embattled posters who spend hours fretting over the unforgivable sin, maybe the overemphasis of your thoughts aren’t so different.

You should isolate some of your needs in which you’re deficient my friend. Then take stock of what’s keeping you from those things. Maybe it’s romantic or friendship oriented, an absence of work life or some of the other things you’ve shared.

The board and users should be able to help too. Be strong, but defo escape hell.

the quote he gave was from a specific saint in the Orthodox Church, St Silouan of Mt Athos. it really doesn’t have to do with what you posted (although, you do make some good points).

 

[Nathaniel Red]

I think one of the great anxiety mistakes that Christian’s make is to live in our heads and overemphasis our ways of seeing life.

“Living in hell” is an unhappy, self harming state of mind, the idea that we could do that and also not despair doesn’t seem doable.

We can overthink spiritual things and our religious means of understanding the world because, in short, we’ve doped ourselves into believing we can’t think too much about these things.

“Eternity is at stake!” “What could be more important than this!” Points like these trip us up and land believers in an unhappy cycle of neurotic thinking. Think of the many embattled posters who spend hours fretting over the unforgivable sin, maybe the overemphasis of your thoughts aren’t so different.

You should isolate some of your needs in which you’re deficient my friend. Then take stock of what’s keeping you from those things. Maybe it’s romantic or friendship oriented, an absence of work life or some of the other things you’ve shared.

The board and users should be able to help too. Be strong, but defo escape hell.

Not sure if you know, but this is the orthodox forum.. The quote of "keep your mind in hell and despair not" is i think from saint silouan, Its very orthodox. Also the word 'mind' is typically used to mean nous, a spiritual organ, not just overthinking, and the Orthodox idea is that heaven and hell are the same and its our perspective which changes, im not just fretting over being saved or not. I appreciate the point on taking stock of what's keeping me from my life goals but in reality it's a lot more difficult to parse than it may sound.

 

[Nathaniel Red]

as far as I can tell, you keep your mind in hell knowing you are a sinner, yet also knowing that God’s mercy is greater than that. that way you don’t sin (because you see where your sins lead) and you don’t despair despite that (because you know God).

But if I'm in hell then I don't know God? Heaven is relationship with God, so hell is not, correct?

And I'm not despairing over whether ill be saved or not, I just have no hope in God. Even if I dont despair though, that doesn't necessarily mean I have hope in God. I find it hard enough to forgive God, hard to focus on his person, hard to believe and trust in him, hard to pray, etc. Hope for some reason feels the hardest of all.

I saw one orthodox site say that hope is a virtue gifted by god. How do I have hope then except by waiting hopelessly for it to somehow be given?

 

[ArmyMatt]

But if I'm in hell then I don't know God? Heaven is relationship with God, so hell is not, correct?

And I'm not despairing over whether ill be saved or not, I just have no hope in God. Even if I dont despair though, that doesn't necessarily mean I have hope in God. I find it hard enough to forgive God, hard to focus on his person, hard to believe and trust in him, hard to pray, etc. Hope for some reason feels the hardest of all.

I saw one orthodox site say that hope is a virtue gifted by god. How do I have hope then except by waiting hopelessly for it to somehow be given?

hell is seeing the face of God for eternity and hating it.

as far as hope goes, you seek it and God gives it to you when He knows your ready for Him to come into your life. as painful as it can be, His seeming silence toward us is for our ultimate good too.

 

[Nathaniel Red]

hell is seeing the face of God for eternity and hating it.

as far as hope goes, you seek it and God gives it to you when He knows your ready for Him to come into your life. as painful as it can be, His seeming silence toward us is for our ultimate good too.

Well, God is love itself, so hell is rejection of love. If God is love itself, it makes sense that he is also aspects of love like mercy or hope. So then by not having hope isnt the real question just how do I have God in my life? For me, accepting God in my life is so muddled by the protestant explanations though. Is it always just waiting for "when he knows I'm ready"? How is it any different from what I said earlier, that it feels like I'm waiting for death on the offchance that something changes?

Also I've multiple times had experiences of God, but they never lasted long. How can it last longer than a day or two? How can i have hope be constantly in the background instead of hopelessness?

 

[Cormack]

and the Orthodox idea is that heaven and hell are the same and its our perspective which changes, im not just fretting over being saved or not.

That’s understandable. Still to keep your mind “in hell,” while not despairing, that’s kind of like a nonsense until we can bring out something inside the idea that seems more. . .liveable.

Like, you’ve shared that you’re finding the quote difficult to apply to your life, while I read your thoughts and my first reaction was of course, of course people would find that hard to apply to their lives, because it sounds kind of like an unliveable thing.

I appreciate the point on taking stock of what's keeping me from my life goals but in reality it's a lot more difficult to parse than it may sound.

How would you parse it given time? No rush.

im not just fretting over being saved or not.

My point there was to say whether or not you’re saved seems like an important thing to expend our emotional and mental energies on.

It’s really important seeming, to the point that lots of Christian’s slip into toxic overthinking on the topic, as if there’s no amount of thinking on that topic that’ll become unprofitable or unhelpful. Still we know it’s not healthy after a certain point.

So I’m floating the idea that maybe some of your pains are in that category of a thing. For example, when we worry about “a country and world that’s falling apart,” that can seem like a really important thing, but, I’d write maybe it’s something you shouldn’t waste anymore emotional and spiritual resources on because you have your own deficiencies that should be met first.

Like that really popular example people give about putting an oxygen mask on yourself before you try and mask up your children. When you help yourself and your desperate needs, then you can better help your world and country.

So there’s the need to isolate and find where your life’s needs aren’t being met, and whether or not achieving those things will set you up to better help those around you.

 

[LaSorcia]

[EDIT: I noticed a prayer that says to the theotokos that we put our hope in her. I dont understand this, not in an academic or philosophical way, but what does this mean in a personal sense?]

We can fully trust her. Her tender pity towards us is more than we can imagine. Do you know this hymn:

I sometimes listen to it and pray along with it towards the end with the supplication. She intercedes for us with Christ like no one else can. I also recommend the Akathist of Thanksgiving. Listening to it repeatedly and praying along with it can work wonders inside of us and give us peace, helping gratitude to well up in us.

God bless you through your struggles.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, God is love itself, so hell is rejection of love. If God is love itself, it makes sense that he is also aspects of love like mercy or hope. So then by not having hope isnt the real question just how do I have God in my life? For me, accepting God in my life is so muddled by the protestant explanations though. Is it always just waiting for "when he knows I'm ready"? How is it any different from what I said earlier, that it feels like I'm waiting for death on the offchance that something changes?

Also I've multiple times had experiences of God, but they never lasted long. How can it last longer than a day or two? How can i have hope be constantly in the background instead of hopelessness?

have you talked to your priest about these questions?

 

[Petros2015]

I've heard this phrase a lot, but I'm unsure how to apply it in my life.

Keep your mind on hell enough
To keep your back to it

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianOrthodoxy/comments/kiwrer/keep_your_mind_in_hell_and_despair_not/

The now famous saying, “Keep thy mind in Hell and despair not.” is a word given by God to St. Silouan one night as he struggled intensely with demons. Six months after going to the Holy Mountain St. Silouan was blessed to experience a vision of Christ in glory, in which he experienced the full Christ, and the life of Christ. Eventually he felt this grace subsiding and so he dedicated himself to extreme ascetical struggles in hopes of attracting the grace of God again. One night, fifteen years later, mentally and spiritually exhausted, St. Silouan wanted simply to bow before Christ in His holy icon, but a terrible demon stood in his way, and he heard from God in his heart, “The proud always suffer from demons.” When he asked God how to defeat pride he heard again in his heart, “Keep thy mind in Hell and despair not.”

I don't think you are struggling with pride... when you are then apply it.
For now, pray and ask God for the word you should apply and discuss it with your priest would be my suggestion

The saint asked God how to defeat Pride; you should follow the example and ask how to defeat Despair

 

[TedT]

"Keep your mind in hell and despair not"

This is a quote from Gillian Rose, Love's Work: A Reckoning with Life not from any Christian writing and has no value to the Christian ethos.

 

[Petros2015]

This is a quote from Gillian Rose

Come to think of it, it's true I've never seen Gillian Rose and Saint Silvanus the Athonite in the same room together...

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is a quote from Gillian Rose, Love's Work: A Reckoning with Life not from any Christian writing and has no value to the Christian ethos.

I already said it’s from St Silouan of Mt Athos in post 4, who died in the 1930s long before that book was written.

 

[Lukaris]

Gillian Rose was influenced by St. Silouan’s statement. She seemed like thoughtful, good willed individual who died tragically young at age 48. I pray St. Silouan was close to her as she departed from this world.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ork-gillian-rose-philosophy-books-of-defiance

from the link:

there were a prize for the most challenging epigraph, Love’s Work would be a strong contender. Rose takes it from Staretz (in some accounts Saint) Silouan: “Keep your mind in hell, and despair not.” This is of course impossible wisdom, but Rose bore it with her, writing and thinking to the end. The cancer killed her, aged just 48 in 1995. But the defiant invitation to live and think and feel more deeply remains as urgent as ever.

 

[SingularityOne]

The same phrase can be translated: “Glory to God for all things, although I am unworthy” (St. Sophrony) - We are unworthy of all of God’s gifts that he sends us at every second of the day, but He knows what we need. We courageously persevere through this hell of passions and life knowing that only by God’s merciful care (Providence) we grow in communion with Him and can discern His will day by day as we repent towards humility in prayer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The same phrase can be translated: “Glory to God for all things, although I am unworthy” (St. Sophrony) - We are unworthy of all of God’s gifts that he sends us at every second of the day, but He knows what we need. We courageously persevere through this hell of passions and life knowing that only by God’s merciful care (Providence) we grow in communion with Him and can discern His will day by day as we repent towards humility in prayer.

good point

 

[Nathaniel Red]

That’s understandable. Still to keep your mind “in hell,” while not despairing, that’s kind of like a nonsense until we can bring out something inside the idea that seems more. . .liveable.

Like, you’ve shared that you’re finding the quote difficult to apply to your life, while I read your thoughts and my first reaction was of course, of course people would find that hard to apply to their lives, because it sounds kind of like an unliveable thing.

I guess, it was given to a monk saint, and most advice for monks sounds unlivable. I dont really per se need to apply it in my life, I just thought it should help since I feel despair continually, and ive experienced hell, but maybe there's more worldly ideas that would help?

How would you parse it given time? No rush

Well, i mentioned ive had constant spiritual warfare. Part of that is that I was once possessed and exorcised some years ago, after making a contract of some kind, and have struggled ever since. For awhile after I had many demonic visions, dreams which came true, and its still difficult thinking about the future. I've also had an experience more recently which my bishop told me he also thought was from God, and it also had a prediction of the future. Even if I ignore the demonic ones, it still is confusing as to how I'm supposed to figure out my life. The one which might be from God, told me besides other things that I would get back with my ex at a specific time in some years. Am I supposed to hope in that? It didn't work out before. And I have friends but I've been kind of stuck in a similar place the last few years.

My point there was to say whether or not you’re saved seems like an important thing to expend our emotional and mental energies on.

It’s really important seeming, to the point that lots of Christian’s slip into toxic overthinking on the topic, as if there’s no amount of thinking on that topic that’ll become unprofitable or unhelpful. Still we know it’s not healthy after a certain point.

So I’m floating the idea that maybe some of your pains are in that category of a thing. For example, when we worry about “a country and world that’s falling apart,” that can seem like a really important thing, but, I’d write maybe it’s something you shouldn’t waste anymore emotional and spiritual resources on because you have your own deficiencies that should be met first.

Like that really popular example people give about putting an oxygen mask on yourself before you try and mask up your children. When you help yourself and your desperate needs, then you can better help your world and country.

So there’s the need to isolate and find where your life’s needs aren’t being met, and whether or not achieving those things will set you up to better help those around you.

This was insightful, thank you. Though i dont know where exactly I should be emotionally focusing myself instead then.

 

[Nathaniel Red]

have you talked to your priest about these questions?

No. I haven't gone to church in awhile. Or today. I used to feel hopeful that It could help me, but even with the best church I've been to, it just has been painful and uncomfortable.