Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels and Darwin

[JohnR7]

Anyone open for a discussion on communism and darwinism?

 

[Edx]

Are you able to do it without strawmen and distortions of history?

 

[lemmings]

This is absolutely pointless.

Please John, tell us how an economic philosopher lead to the creation of one of the most important biological theories. Apart from the Cold War and government corruption, why is communism evil?

A more interesting thread would be debating the “Three Little Pigs” and “The Wizard of Ozz” influence on the modern Creationism movement regarding straw arguments. You could fit a corn maze somewhere in there too.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Anyone open for a discussion on communism and darwinism?

Sure, let me start off:

Karl Marx

Charles Darwin

1. Both have BEARDS
2. Both are MEN
3. Both are from a long time ago
4. Communism is Evil
5. Evolution is Evil
6. ERGO: Communism is Evolution

Now for a few random bible quotes;

[bible]Matthew 3:5[/bible]
[bible]Daniel 5:3[/bible]

And finally the most damning quote I can find from Marx:

"If I negate powdered wigs, I am still left with unpowdered wigs. "

• Introduction to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right (1844)

QED.

Did I win?

 

[FishFace]

Pshaw!

Communism is clearly evil - trying to stop alienation and spread equality, etc etc - we wouldn't want that, now, would we? And, similarly, evolution says we are equal with animals! Egads, they're practically the same theory! Evil, atheist, devil-worshippers.

Now, some people may be wondering why everyone's just posting a load of nonsense. I put to the house that this is because if you put nonsense in, you get nonsense out. Once I may have reserved judgment (probably, we all would have done) but now I'm too jaded. I cannot remotely conceive of any possible way in which this is anything other than a new brand of logical fallacy - Argumentum ad Disjunctum - argument from irrelevance. The debater in question puts forward an irrelevant position, distorted possibly enough to make them sound linked to the casual lurker.
It is almost unthinkable that this will be more than strawmen, hand-waving and probably downright falsehood.

Nonetheless, I await with perhaps foolish anticipation. I might even have something more productive to say if an argument ever arises.

 

[[serious]]

Ok, lets take a look at the two:

marxism:
1. theorizes that distribution of wealth will become more uneven as a society progresses until reaching a critical mass at which point the working class will rise up and seize control of the economy and progress toward a uniform distribution of wealth. There are 6 defined stages of social progression begining with anachy and ending with communism.
2. Theorizes that once the majority of countries progress to communism both currency and government will become vestigial and eventually disappear
3. Has since been superceded by Russian communism in which a central power acts as a flagship communism which catalyzes other countries to become communist.

Evolution:
1. organisms reproduce imprefectly
2. the genetics of a population will thus tend to maintain a degree of variation
3. events that selectively prevent a segment of the population from breeding due to a phenotype linked to a genotype will cause a different percentage of that genotype in the population.

Not so much "apples and oranges" as "apples and bicycles".

 

[OdwinOddball]

Anyone want to actually stick to one unfounded thread at a time instead of trying to hide out in several others?

 

[Upisoft]

Anyone want to actually stick to one unfounded thread at a time instead of trying to hide out in several others?

Hey! All treads are equal. Eh, some are more equal than others...

 

[JohnR7]

This is absolutely pointless.

It would appear that denial is more then just a river in egypt. That is fine if no one wants to have a open discussion about evolution. I am sort of tired of dealing with the subject anyways. We can just talk about creation science.

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

We can just talk about creation science.

If they would produce some science, then we might have something to talk about. Cite some peer-reviewed creation research, then we'll talk about creation "science".

 

[JohnR7]

If they would produce some science, then we might have something to talk about .

We could talk about some of the things that Marx said about Darwinism.

In 1861, Karl Marx wrote to his friend Ferdinand Lassalle, "Darwin’s work is most important and suits my purpose in that it provides a basis in natural science for the historical class struggle. ... Despite all shortcomings, it is here that, for the first time, ‘teleology’ in natural science is not only dealt a mortal blow but its rational meaning is empirically explained." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influences_on_Karl_Marx#Charles_Darwin

Today though a market economy may prevail and private businesses prosper, Karl Marx is still revered in this socialist country.

On Marx's birthday Sunday, the nation still pays the highest respect to the father of the Communist movement.

A survey conducted in north China's Hebei Province showed that 100 percent of the respondents have heard of the German philosopher.
They all agree that Marx's theory changed human history. http://english.people.com.cn/200205/06/eng20020506_95183.shtml .

 

[lemmings]

Who cares what Marx thought about Darwin’s theory! You have yet to show me anything inherently evil about Marx’s economic theory!! Should we insult the Wright brothers because they invented air travel that allowed Hitler’s army to advance during the blitz???

 

[us38]

Anyone open for a discussion on communism and darwinism?

No, but hows bout a discussion about general relativity and stock market fluctuations? Or computer science and climatology?

 

[[serious]]

We could talk about some of the things that Marx said about Darwinism.

I'd venture to guess that Marx also believed in heliocentrism. It doesn't establish a heliocentrism/communism link though.

Also, from your source: "Having read Darwin's work and mentioned Darwin by name in Das Kapital, it is presumable that Marx may have been influenced to some degree by Darwin, however, the depth of that influence, if any, would certainly seem to be greatly exaggerated by a number of religious fundamentalists that seek to paint Darwin's ideas as incredibly dangerous."

 

[JohnR7]

Who cares what Marx thought about Darwin’s theory! You have yet to show me anything inherently evil about Marx’s economic theory!!

In China they do not seem to think that Marx is evil. His "lessons" are still taught in the schools there today. The question is are their evolutionary theorys that can be traced back to Marx, sense it seems clear that he was a evolutionist and he had quite a bit to say about evolution.

 

[lemmings]

In China they do not seem to think that Marx is evil. His "lessons" are still taught in the schools there today. The question is are their evolutionary theorys that can be traced back to Marx, sense it seems clear that he was a evolutionist and he had quite a bit to say about evolution.

You have still not shown us anything absolutely horrible about Communism! The problems with Communism that we see today and during the Cold War are a direct relationship to the government corruption in those areas. We have it too, I don’t believe that there is any large State that does not have some form of corruption.

If you relate evolutionary principles to economics, you will find Communism is anti-evolution, and Capitalism, the polar opposite of Communism, is pro-evolution.

PS: Where you spoon feed those many mid-20th century propaganda films when you where a kid?

 

[Self Improvement]

In China they do not seem to think that Marx is evil. His "lessons" are still taught in the schools there today. The question is are their evolutionary theorys that can be traced back to Marx, sense it seems clear that he was a evolutionist and he had quite a bit to say about evolution.

So Marx accepted evolution because he thought it was in line with his economic ideas, not because he knew the science behind it. He was just using it to further his cause.

 

[Sleeker]

How does communism affect the theory of evolution? In fact, doesn't it go against the whole natural selection thing by saying everyone is equal?

Edit: Does that mean I can say that all creationists commit tax fraud? Sweet...

 

[kiwimac]

a: Marx had read about Darwin's theories.
b: I have also read Darwin's theories
c: Both Marx, Darwin AND I have beards.
d: ipso facto Marx, Darwin and I are one and the same!

 

[lemmings]

John has failed to announce why Communism is evil. Or how evolution supports the ‘evil’ Communism rather than Capitalism.