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Kansas City Prophets: False???

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riverpastor

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I guess depending on which side of the road you stand on, we could all be considered false or heretics to others.

If you feel that Bob Jones, Mike Bickle, Randy Clark are false prophets, I'd like to hear an opinion and reasoning as to "why".

If not, you may also state your support here.
 

talitha

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I have loosely followed the ministries of Bob Jones and Mike Bickle, and I . I feel that all three of these men really do love Jesus. I feel that Bob Jones is a true prophet. I don't know what kind of title to give the other two, but they are genuine -- well, Randy Clark is a Vineyard pastor. He is a very humble man whom God uses mightily.

I don't have intellectual reason -- when you know something from the Lord, you don't need that. I know probably many people would probably argue with me, but you are not likely to change my mind with your words....

blessings
tal
 
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SavedByGrace3

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riverpastor said:
I guess depending on which side of the road you stand on, we could all be considered false or heretics to others.

If you feel that Bob Jones, Mike Bickle, Randy Clark are false prophets, I'd like to hear an opinion and reasoning as to "why".

If not, you ay also state your support here.
I know very little about these guys. I actually picked up one of Mile Bickle's book at the mall just yesterday. I am hesitant to get into these things because a few years ago the Lord told me to keep a fresh clear eye. Can't do that if I am reading the revelation of others.
 
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riverpastor

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Actually, Dids, I would admonish the "unseasoned" Christian (in the prophetic) to read the visions of others - beginning with John in the book of Revelation. The Final Quest by Rick Joyner is a good book to hand to others. It is full of visualization. This may help to "open the door" of the Holy Spirit in enabling others to "see" the unseen for themselves.

But, you are not "unseasoned".

I read Mike Bickle's book "Growing in the Prophetic" and it was a long, arduous, boring book to read. It really didn't add that much to my knowledge of the prophetic giftings. I think it may be a premise of initiation for those who do not understand these ways.

Tal, I also follow the ministry of Christ through these men. I have no problem with them. I just want to see where others stand.

I was in a Rick Joyner conference a few years back in Jacksonville, Florida, and it was phenomenal. Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, Joseph Garlington, Steve Thompson, and Ray Hughes spoke at this conference. The worship delivered an open heaven atmosphere.

Very powerful.
 
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Christina M

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An assistant pastor at my old church left about 6 years ago to join the staff at Mike Bickle's prayer center in Kansas City. He and his wife have grown so much since being there, and they have nothing but praise for the folks mentioned in the title post.

I have been blessed by Rick Joyner's books, as well as Cindy Jacobs and the Generals of Intercession.
 
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JimB

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Haven’t a couple of these KC Prophets (one of which is mentioned above) been publicly disciplined by the leaders of the fellowship on morals charges (i.e., one on immoral behavior with women, in 1991 at the height of his fame and alleged powers, and another for homosexual behavior in 2004)?

From all accounts, Mike Bickle is a godly person and a true leader, although I question his discernment sometimes (as his endorsement then disassociation with the examples above).

Randy Clark who became involved with the John Arnott and Toronto Blessing left the Vineyard in the mid-90s when the Toronto church left the Vineyard. I don’t have a clue what he is up to these days.

~Jim





 
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talitha

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Bob Jones was publically disciplined, yes, but he has been restored, I believe.... I have read the last two "Shepherd's Rod" booklets -- he puts these out each year in association with Paul Keith Davis, and these have stirred up the prophetic in my life -- I have all kinds of revelations while reading Bob Jones's words, even an open vision once -- WOW that was something, praise the Lord!

Another prophet whose name has not been mentioned on here was recently sanctioned because of homosexual behavior, I think that's who you are thinking of..... I heard he had actually repented in an open letter on his ministry's website, but I haven't found it. Out of respect I will refrain from mentioning his name here .....

I believe Mike Bickle responded correctly to the latter incident -- I am not privy to how he handled the whole Bob Jones thing....

I attended Randy Clark's Vineyard congregation just south of Saint Louis (or maybe it was within the city limits, don't remember) once,in the summer of 2000. My time there was very refreshing, and I enjoyed meeting Randy and his wife. It was a fairly small church, by the way, oriented toward ministering to the poor of the area, and served as his home base between trips with his ministry, Global Awakening. As far as I know he has not split with the Vineyard since then. I occasionally get newsletters from him, and he has not mentioned such a split. He's mentioned many evangelical trips, including some to Mozambique with Heidi Baker -- who is (I think) a delight.

blessings
tal
 
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amorosi

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Christina M said:
Yes, Paul Cain has publicly repented. You can read it on many minstry's sites. Sometimes admission and repentance is not enough for some people. Makes me wonder what would happen if those who ridicule had their private lives exposed?
well THAT IS all very good and well, however from what ive read, and ive read this on many well informed web-sites, it was not just some slip of the tongue, or gossiping, that mr paul cain was in breach of, but from all the accounts ive read, and ive researched this in detail... he mr cain was was living in "homosexuality", yes ive read this on numerous web-sites and mike bickle was forced to come out publiclly and admit, that paul cain, had indeed fallen victim to gross sin, and from whatr i read.. he was also given over to much drunkness as well, now okay you say amorosi we all sin, and we all fall at times ...yes that is true...i am not disputing that fact, how-ever...here is the difference i make and present to you, these men were in public ministry at the time, people looked up to them, they were seen as "supposedly true prophets of the lord" ten of thousands of people respected them, but what were they doing all along ??( they had secret unconfessed sin in their life )how-ever they continued to preach until they were caught and found out ( now that is the deception )...and that makes it twice as bad !! it would be one thing if they stepped aside before these things came to a head, but no-- they continued to stand behind the pulpit, as though it were a light thing to them !!

therefore because they failed to judge there own hearts, and failed to walk away from pulpit ministry, until the sins were dealt with...then unfortuanately their sins were brought out in a public way of shame and world wide embarrassment...you see it needn't have come down to that, if they had only stepped aside for a season....and allowed repentance to work it's work, and allowed chastisement and discipline to work it's work !!!

you see.. had they.. had judged threir own hearts beforehand.....and for a season...stepped down from the pulpit ministry, then it might not have come down public humiliation, public disgrace, and shame on their part.

god can restore....im not questioning wether god can restore...so please hear me, for what im saying and trying to get across in this thread reply...here is the DEAL AND THE CRUX OF THE MATTER.

im addressing the deception of making out THAT aLL is JUST fine and dANDY
WHEN IN FACT ALL IS NOT JUST FINE AND DANDY...BECAUSE YOU HAVE GROSS SIN IN YOUR LIFE, AND THE DECEPTION OF PRETEND THAT ALL IS OKAY, AND IT IS STILL YOUR RIGHT TO CONTINUE IN MINISTRY, WELL AT LEAST UNTIL YOU GET CAUGHT, YES SADLY THEY HAVE THIS MISNOMA, THAT MINISTRY CAN GO ON, WHILST LIVING IN GROSS ACTS OF THE FLESH.

WELL THAT IS IT AND GOD IS NOW MOVING IN WAYS HE NEVER HAS BEFORE, I AM HERE TO TELL YOU ON MAY THE 28TH 2005, THAT THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOUR AND IMPROPRIETY IS GOING TO CEASE IN THE HOUSE OF GOD !!GOD IS NOT GOING TO TOLERATE THIS KIND OF HYPOCRISY ANYMORE..."MARK THESE WORDS", ANNAIS AND SAPPHIRA SITUATIONS will occur ONCE again, IF WE are GUILTY OF DECIEVING IN THIS MANNER AND ON THIS LEVEL-- AND THEN THINK-- AND PRESUME TO OURSELVES, IT IS STILL OKAY IF WE STAND BEHIND THE PULPITS ON SUNDAYS, SORRY IT DON'T WORK THAT WAY, AND GOD WILL NOT PUT UP WITH THIS THING FOR MUCH LONGER, HOW DARE WE OR ANYBODY FOR THAT MATTER STAND IN THE SANCTUARY OF GOD, GOD'S HOLY HOUSE WITH HANDS AND HEARTS THAT ARE DEFILED AND POLLUTED, WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE KIDDING, COME ON CHURCH WAKE-UP, WAKE-UP CHURCH !!, LET'S SEE THROUGHT THE SHAMand the facades... THE THING IS THIS...WHAT YOU SEE OUT THERE AT THE MOMENT...IS NOT-- REALLY WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE !!( I SPEAK OF NOW OF A LOT OF HIGH-PROFILE PLATFORM MINISTRIES)THESE MEN ARE PREACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL, AND ALSO ANOTHER JESUS !! AND THEN THEY TRY AND FOOL CONGREGATIONS into thinking THEY are "thIS great power of god", all the while-- THEY ARE-- living in blatant SIN, AND immoral acts of the flesh !!

god will bring down his sword, and he will bear down hard with a rod, A ROD OF HEAVY CORRECTION...YAY THE TIME IS COMING WHEN THOSE WHO TREAT PULPIT MINISTRY AS A LIGHT THING, AND THOSE THAT BRING SHAME TO THE HOUSE OF GOD, SO THAT THE HEATHEN THEN REPROACH US... AND MOCK US ( ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST...THE HEATHEN SAY ...THEY MOCK US THE CHURCH...AND THE SAINTS.....YOU SEE WE ARE THE "BRUNT AND THE "BUTT" OF THE LATE SHOW JOKES ON T.V, THEY MAKE SATIRE COMEDY.. OUT THE DOWNFALL'S OF THESE MODERN PREACHERS ) BUT AS IS PREDICTED AND PROPESIED BY GOD'S TRUE WATHCMAN, THEIR IS NEW STANDARD OF HOLINESS COMING BACK TO THE CHURCH, AND HE WILL CLEANSE HIS TEMPLE, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER , GOD IS GOING TO HAVE A CHURCH WITH-OUT SPOT, BLEMISH OR WRINKLE, OR ANY SUCH THING, A GLORIOUS CHURCH, AND IF SEVERE EXPOSURE AND HEAVY CHASTISEMENT IS REQUIRED...THEN SO BEIT !! ONE WAY OR THE OTHER GOD .. is going to "clean up" his people and his house, and ONCE AGAIN the fear of god WILL COME back... to the house of god, THESE men who trample under feet the SON OF GOD, AND PUT HIM TO AN OPEN SHAME ... NEED TO BE ULTRA CAREFUL NOT TO do despite to the spirit of grace , NOR count the blood OF THE COVENANT... werewith they were cleansed to be an unholy thing !

you cannot deceive the congregations... and not think god will not expose you-- and censure your deeds to the entire public.

YES GOD CAN RESTORE....THAT IS HOW-EVER NOT WHAT IM ADDRESSING IN THIS THREAD, IM ADDRESSING THE SHEER HYPOCRISY AND FRAUD OF continuing in ministry, WHILST THESE SINS ARE STILL ACTIVE and raging... IN YOUR LIFE !! All the while deceiving the flock and THE CONGREGATIONS, INTO THINKING YOU ARE THIS GREAT MAN OF GOD, meanwhile YOU LIVE LIKE EVERY OTHER HEATHEN out there... IMBIBING and feeding your mind on filth !!

if you seek and want this "high profile" public ministry, then know also, that it comes with "awesome accountability", and that the public and the church will see and notice your lifestyle !! to whom much is given.....then much also will be required.

respectfully amorosi
 
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swifteagle

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What an encouragement this thread is! A lot of the threads in these forums seem filled with people's ideas that fall so far from showing any familiarity with the Father. It's not hard to tell -- from the "atmosphere" in people's posts -- who's been spending time in the Throne Room!

swifteagle
 
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Mark Downham

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I encountered Paul Cain in 1991 when he announced the End of the World and then He had a breakdown - I knew He would - I saw the glory departing and I saw him running around in the wilderness - he had gone blind - then God reached down and lifted him up again and placed him with R.T.Kendall and he was restored again and then he started walking away again and I saw the glory departing again - the talents are really about how we grow in Christ - our inheritance in Heaven literally is what we have become on Earth in the Spirit - it really is Incarnational Transformation.

I encountered John Wimber in 1995 and I knew He was dying and He said the Kansas City Prophets had been a mistake -you can strike the Rock but if it is not in the will of the Trinity - water may flow, but it will not be lifegiving - it was his confession - what could I say - I just listened - it was His Ecclesiastes - he was laying his mantle down - Joshua has been a long time coming in the Vineyard Movement - now He is here -I hear that sound of distant thunder approaching - the horses hooves and the riders bringing in the Dawn.

And what of Anglicanism? Out of the ruins and broken down walls of the Anglican Church - the gates that have been burned with fire - the rubble of our constructions which have not been built on the foundations of the Prophets and Apostles - a new formation is emerging - out of that weathered stump, a new shoot is emerging and it is going to fill the horizon.

The 24/7 Prayer movement has lit a fire in the Anglican Church which is going to cleanse and purge everything - our ecclesiology, our liturgy, our reason, our tradition, our hermeneutics, our stand, stance and take on Scripture, our reception of the Spirit - the Eagle is descending and He is swift, magnificent and glorious - so very fast - His wingspan covers the stars.

Psalm 91:4
He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

Mark
 
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JimB

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Mark Downham said:
*****
I encountered John Wimber in 1995 and I knew He was dying and He said the Kansas City Prophets had been a mistake -you can strike the Rock but if it is not in the will of the Trinity - water may flow, but it will not be lifegiving - it was his confession - what could I say - I just listened - it was His Ecclesiastes - he was laying his mantle down - Joshua has been a long time coming in the Vineyard Movement - now He is here -I hear that sound of distant thunder approaching - the horses hooves and the riders bringing in the Dawn.
*****
Mark
Mark,

Um, Excuse me, but what the heck does all this mean? Is this prophecy-talk or something? It sounds like Nostradamus doubletalk with scripture allusions thrown in. I mean, is this a pro- or con- Vineyard statement? Sorry, I just don’t know what you’re driving at.

Using simple vocabulary East Texas Redneck English could you tell me what this means?

BTW, I am post-Wimber Vineyard so nothing you will say will be offensive to me although I do respect the man for what he endured for this fellowship.

~Jim



 
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JimB

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Mark Downham said:
*****
And what of Anglicanism? Out of the ruins and broken down walls of the Anglican Church - the gates that have been burned with fire - the rubble of our constructions which have not been built on the foundations of the Prophets and Apostles - a new formation is emerging - out of that weathered stump, a new shoot is emerging and it is going to fill the horizon.

The 24/7 Prayer movement has lit a fire in the Anglican Church which is going to cleanse and purge everything - our ecclesiology, our liturgy, our reason, our tradition, our hermeneutics, our stand, stance and take on Scripture, our reception of the Spirit - the Eagle is descending and He is swift, magnificent and glorious - so very fast - His wingspan covers the stars.

*****

Mark
Mark,

I am excited by what I see coming out of the Anglican Church. Who are these leaders in this Evangelical Anglican renewal?

~Jim



 
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swifteagle

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Mark Downham said:
The 24/7 Prayer movement has lit a fire in the Anglican Church which is going to cleanse and purge everything - our ecclesiology, our liturgy, our reason, our tradition, our hermeneutics, our stand, stance and take on Scripture, our reception of the Spirit - the Eagle is descending and He is swift, magnificent and glorious - so very fast - His wingspan covers the stars.

Psalm 91:4

Mark

24/7 has been very exciting where I live. We have Healing Rooms (under Spokane/Cal Pierce) near where we live and it is drawing unity among the churches. It has been instrumental in ushering in the 24/7. We really feel that prayer IS a major KEY to releasing a greater flow of His Spirit in the lives of people, the community and the churches!

Swifteagle ><>
 
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Mark Downham

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Jim M said:
Mark,

Um, Excuse me, but what the heck does all this mean? Is this prophecy-talk or something? It sounds like Nostradamus doubletalk with scripture allusions thrown in. I mean, is this a pro- or con- Vineyard statement? Sorry, I just don’t know what you’re driving at.

Using simple vocabulary East Texas Redneck English could you tell me what this means?

BTW, I am post-Wimber Vineyard so nothing you will say will be offensive to me although I do respect the man for what he endured for this fellowship.

~Jim

Bert Waggoner, the National Director of Vineyard Churches USA is Joshua - the outriders in the Vineyard movement who are bringing the dawn with them - including you - are the new and emerging leaders and in their wake is a reformation of how we do Church and its testament is social justice,compassion and a faith that is on fire for radical change.

I bear witness to the Apostolic Sufferings of John Wimber - the adoption of the Kansas City Prophets by his own testimony in 1995 was the pursuit of a vehicle for transformative reformation which nearly collapsed the Vineyard Movement and those labouring with the movement - including us.

Love.

Mark
 
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Mark Downham

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Jim M said:
Mark,

I am excited by what I see coming out of the Anglican Church. Who are these leaders in this Evangelical Anglican renewal?

~Jim

There are several movements - we have all come out of the HTB Alpha alignment - but there are many new Evangelical Anglican Clergy and Laity emerging in and all over the UK and several firebrands in the USA - including fellow workers like our very own Father Rick.

The 24/7 Prayer Movement was started by Peter Greig - His story is in the book 'Red Moon Rising' - from the Revelation Church - Evangelical Anglican Ministries caught hold of the vision and engaged the movement and it is sweeping through our Churches and parishes.

Love.

Mark
 
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Mark Downham

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swifteagle said:
24/7 has been very exciting where I live. We have Healing Rooms (under Spokane/Cal Pierce) near where we live and it is drawing unity among the churches. It has been instrumental in ushering in the 24/7. We really feel that prayer IS a major KEY to releasing a greater flow of His Spirit in the lives of people, the community and the churches!

Swifteagle ><>

Heavenly.

Mark
 
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JimB

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Mark Downham said:
Bert Waggoner, the National Director of Vineyard Churches USA is Joshua - the outriders in the Vineyard movement who are bringing the dawn with them - including you - are the new and emerging leaders and in their wake is a reformation of how we do Church and its testament is social justice,compassion and a faith that is on fire for radical change.

I bear witness to the Apostolic Sufferings of John Wimber - the adoption of the Kansas City Prophets by his own testimony in 1995 was the pursuit of a vehicle for transformative reformation which nearly collapsed the Vineyard Movement and those labouring with the movement - including us.

Love.

Mark
Thanks Mark. You may have a point. I did not come into the Vineyard until 2001 and came into the movement/denomination because of Bert Waggoner. Bert was a long time personal friend of mine from our AG days together back in the early 1980s.

We pastored Houston congregations only a few miles from each other and I assisted Bert in bringing Wimber to Houston in 1986 for a Signs & Wonders Conference. However, I did not join the Vineyard until Bert became national director in 2000. Our church plant here in East Texas is a plant out of the church Bert pastors in Sugar Land TX. Bert is, in effect, my pastor.

However, I would not be Vineyard today if the movement would have pursued its previous directions (later corrected, thank God) toward the Kansas City Prophets and the Toronto thing. I would have opposed any Vineyard involvement in either of them had I been a Vineyard pastor at the times.

Furthermore, I felt, rightly or wrongly, during the 80s-90s that a personality cult had formed around the charismatic personality of John Wimber. This was no fault of his. He was simply a strong leader. But the Vineyard, IMO, had become too much of a reflection of Wimber’s personal beliefs and values. This, along with the KC Prophets and Toronto, kept me out of the Vineyard during the 90s. With Bert, however, I feel a stronger emphasis on theology, relationships and church planting (the Vineyard does have the highest rate of church plants of anybody last year) and Vineyard pastors are being encouraged to read theologians like Tom Wright and Gordon Fee.

Bert is, I guess, a Joshua of sorts and a remarkably effective leader.

~Jim

 
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