He's not merely pointing out the questions that will be discussed. He himself is asking the questions, which means he thinks there is no set answer. If he believes there are set answers then he would see the journal issue as unnecessary.
He asks can we really expect homosexuals to be celibate? The fact that he asks that without answering YES means he thinks the answer is not clear. He thinks there is room for homosexual sex, or at the very least that the answer isn't clear. But he has been at this far too long to actually be that ignorant.
Otherwise, that whole section of his foreword is entirely pointless and only misleading and scandalizing the faithful. It's still scandalous of course, but because a metropolitan thinks homosexual sex might be alright.
He's not just talking pastorally. This is theology.
Done. actually already done in post 171I'd like to ask anyone here who thinks what Ware is asking is perfectly fine to come out and outright answer Ware's question.
So...We await your answers!
The time I see being most difficult both with same sex marriages (say for example, someone comes in as a convert and is in that situation with marriage outside the Church) where there are kids who are previously adopted by them both - or for example a family with polygamous marriages, is the lack of teaching for how to handle situations like that. The reality is that the former is common in Western society, and the latter happens in some other societies on a regular basis. What is the course of action for situations like that? Obviously, continuing same sex sexual intercourse is wrong - and I’m guessing with the latter, it should be stopped as well. Beyond that, can they live in the same house with brotherly or sisterly love (non-romantic) since there are children who love them? Do we break up families in the sense of having a common household? What is the course of action with these situations?
Honestly, it’s not that far off, and there are situations where people are in non-compatible situations prior to becoming Orthodox. A similar situation would be having missions work in communities that still practice polygamous marriage.
Is now a time where a council should address how we should handle these situations, with love that recognizes that the situations must also be addressed and not ignored?
Honest question - have you heard of a course of action commonly taught by the Church as a whole?
Sure, this is a pastoral issue, but it is also something that I don’t believe we have an answer from the Church as a whole. It may be slightly off topic, but it is related and is something that is a valid topic to be addressed by the Church.That's a pastoral issue that quite frankly should be discussed between a bishop and his priests. But, once again, Ware is asking a very specific question. Can We Expect Homosexuals To Be Celibate?" We await the answer to that specific question from those here who think Ware is "keeping with the tradition".
We've already talked about pastoral alternatives that could be done in economia between the pertinent and his or her spiritual father. I've yet to see those who think Ware is keeping with the tradition acknowledge those alternatives.
Before anyone accuses me of being liberal or trying to promote the validity of same sex marriage or polygamous marriages - I am not doing that. I am proposing however that there are situations where it is difficult on all parts - and where there is a lack of definition within the Church of how to pastorally address this. It is something that should be defined so that people interested in Orthodoxy or people trying to come back to the Church can have an answer on how this can be handled. There are not always quick and easy decisions, and these situations shouldn’t be ignored.
These are some situations that certainly should be acknowledged and addressed by the Church as a whole.
"He asked can we expect homosexuals (or anyone else who is not married because this question can very easily be applied to them) be celibate?"
Please answer this question. Just in case I was not clear before, hopefully this repetition will make it very clear.
I can answer that. and the answer is yes. I know a guy who struggles with SSA, and he is not a monastic but is celibate.
the only options are celibacy or marriage to the opposite sex. and repentance for when/if you screw up (which we all do).
plus, if straight people can do it, I see no reason why someone with SSA cannot do it.
I do appreciate the alternatives mentioned, and perhaps if I would like additional answers, I should make a different thread. You are absolutely right about the group counseling being needed, both for this and other sexual passions. If we pursue ways to support people in their journey, it may help with other discussions or concerns regarding SSA and other sins.If you scroll back to the early part of this tread, you'll see a partial possible solution I suggested. I've also suggested other alternative living arrangements, and group counseling done by and for Orthodox Christians struggling with SSA, but I have not seen those who think Ware or anyone else who had said similar things to Ware acknowledge and accept these possible solutions as valid or reasonable possibilities. They keep going back to the question that yet remains unanswered: Can We Expect Homosexuals To Remain Celibate"? We yet again, await the answer.
I do appreciate the alternatives mentioned, and perhaps if I would like additional answers, I should make a different thread. You are absolutely right about the group counseling being needed, both for this and other sexual passions. If we pursue ways to support people in their journey, it may help with other discussions or concerns regarding SSA and other sins.
Father addressed that briefly with me a few years ago. What he said is that people are accepted as they are, but the expectations of the Church are explained to them. I got the impression that it was usually accepted that the person would have only one fully consummated marriage from that point, but that the expectation may well be that he provide for all if necessary. What happens if that means enforced celibacy on other wives who might not be disposed to it - I'm not sure?Sure, this is a pastoral issue, but it is also something that I don’t believe we have an answer from the Church as a whole. It may be slightly off topic, but it is related and is something that is a valid topic to be addressed by the Church.
It is an honest question that I wish people would not ignore or shrug off as something that is not pertinent to the discussion. I have never seen people take it seriously when I ask. Perhaps I should create a new thread, but it is a controversial subject that I’d prefer to confine to one thread in the forum personally
One thing I really appreciate about my old church (before I became Orthodox) is the group counseling they have. It’s called Celebrate Recovery. It is for all passions, habitual sins, or struggles with addiction of all kinds, etc. Of course, there are things I believe we should do differently, but acknowledging that it is needed and pursuing it is very important - and is something I think we should do as well. It really helped a friend of mine who experienced guilt for the sins of her husband and guilt for what he did to her and her family. It meant a lot to have support, understanding and non-condemnation.Absolutely. I would add that the group counseling alternative would be helpful for other passions as well. Another great passion that many people struggle with especially with the advent of the internet is pornography. Porn is a huge problem across the board that doesn't get talked about enough either. Having such an alternative like counseling would be a great help.
We need to support each other outside of going to confession. We are not supposed to sin, go to confession, sin again, go to confession, and keep repeating the cycle. We are supposed to actually stop sinning! (easier said than done right?)
It's the only logical way of seeing what he wrote. You ask questions when you don't know the answer, or want people to rethink the answer.That's a pretty aggressive, even hostile, interpretation that doesn't have much basis in reality.
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