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k1 chart - open for discussion

Douggg

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Here is the k1 chart that reflects keras's end times view sequence of events. I provided the graphical support to keras for making a chart that reflects his eschatology view. The chart is not that of my opinion, although I do agree with parts of it.

So therefore, please direct your opening questions and comments to keras, and not me. I first asked his permission to begin this thread. So please start your reply with an @keras .




 
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Original Happy Camper

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fundemental error to this chart and the others you produce is the 7 years

IMHO is not supported by the word of GOD
 
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tranquil

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Some aspects I agree, most I don't.

The 6th Seal, looks like the 'end of the world', occurs on Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles/ 15 Tishri. (Start of the 1st four Trumpets) (start of the 1st woe)

5 months later (Revelation 9:5) is 15 Adar, the abomination shows up in Jerusalem for the winter, Sabbath start of the 'great tribulation'. (start of the 6th Trumpet/ start of the 2nd woe)

42 months later is 15 Av (on some years, depending on how many Adar II's there are). Start literally 70 weeks (Daniel 9:24-27).

Start literally 7 weeks until 'an anointed one' (messiah) (Daniel 9:25)

(It will vary, and so, depending on the set of years, the 42 months will be around 1239, 1240, or 1241 days : [29.5 X 42 months = 1239]).

1241 + 49 days = 1290 days. Put differently: 42 Bible months + the 7 weeks of Daniel 9:25 = 1290 days

Finishing out the 70 weeks will take you to Hanukah (give or take a few days, but this is accounted for with Hosea 6:2's 2 days He will revive us, the 3rd we will live in His sight). It is interesting to read Hosea 6:1-6 in the context of Hanukah.

1Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us to pieces, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bind up our wounds. 2After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His presence. 3So let us know— let us press on to know the LORD. As surely as the sun rises, He will appear; He will come to us like the rain,like the spring showers that water the earth. 4What shall I do with you, O Ephraim? What shall I do with you, O Judah?For your loyalty is like a morning mist, like the early dew that vanishes. 5Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of My mouth, and My judgments go forth like lightning.

6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
 
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Douggg

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fundemental error to this chart and the others you produce is the 7 years

IMHO is not supported by the word of GOD
Well, although I don't consider the k1 chart as mine, but keras's, the bible has plenty of support that 7 years is a core timeline for end times events.

The 7 years in Ezekiel 39 follow the Gog/Magog event, for example. Those are the 7 years on the k1 chart. As also Daniel 9:27 text supports the 7 years as the core timeframe for end times events. A lot is going to happen during that 7 years.
 
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Douggg

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Tranquil, could you please edit your post to include an @keras at the start of your reply.
 
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Douggg

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Some aspects I agree, most I don't.
What are the aspects on the k1 chart you agree with ?

What I agree with the k1 chart is that Gog/Magog event takes place, then followed by the 7 years, ending with Jesus's return.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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A lot DID happen during that 7 years long ago. Such as Christ confirming the new covenant with His blood while putting an end to the necessity of the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings in the process.
 
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keras

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The 6th Seal, looks like the 'end of the world', occurs on Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles/ 15 Tishri. (Start of the 1st four Trumpets) (start of the 1st woe)
The Sixth Seal is listed in Revelation before the Trumpets or the woes.
There is no reason or indication we should conflate them.
The 6th Seal, looks like the 'end of the world',
It isn't. None of the graphic descriptions of the Day of the Lord's wrath, say it will be the end.
The world will be badly affected, but only the Middle East region will be cleared and cleansed.
(It will vary, and so, depending on the set of years, the 42 months will be around 1239, 1240, or 1241 days : [29.5 X 42 months = 1239]).
No need to mess around with the day; month or year periods, because after the Sixth Seal: the earth shall be moved from her place, Isaiah 13:13, a year will become exactly 360 days, a month exactly 30 days, and a day will remain 24 hours, as the earths rotation won't change, just our orbital speed.

Hosea 6:1-5 plainly states the two 'days' of the Church age and the one 'day' of the Millennium, in Gods timing. In our timing - two thousand years and one thousand years.
 
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keras

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A lot DID happen during that 7 years long ago. Such as Christ confirming the new covenant with His blood while putting an end to the necessity of the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings in the process.
Nowhere in the first Century can an exact 7 year period be shown. That idea is preterist rubbish and it flat out denies the given times in Revelation.

As for sacrifices and offerings, God has waived His requirement for them during this Church age. This does not mean they cannot be reinstated.
God does not change; He wanted them before and it is clearly prophesied that He will have sacrifices and offerings again.
 
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tranquil

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What are the aspects on the k1 chart you agree with ?

What I agree with the k1 chart is that Gog/Magog event takes place, then followed by the 7 years, ending with Jesus's return.

Mainly that things start at the 6th Seal and end on Hanukah .
 
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tranquil

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The Sixth Seal is listed in Revelation before the Trumpets or the woes.
There is no reason or indication we should conflate them.

People are expecting the end of the world.

12And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”​

The servants are sealed and the 'great multitude' comes out of the great tribulation.

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back its four winds so that no wind would blow on land or sea or on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God. And he called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
After they are sealed, there is a silence for half an hour, then the Trumpets sound.
There is no time element given for the first four Trumpets.

1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets. 3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. 6And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them. 7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass. 8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. 10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters. 12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

13And as I observed, I heard an eagle flying overhead, calling in a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!”
I already know that you don't think that it really means 'a half hour', I know that you think it really means 20 years or whatever it is. But I am just going with what it literally says.

It isn't. None of the graphic descriptions of the Day of the Lord's wrath, say it will be the end.
The world will be badly affected, but only the Middle East region will be cleared and cleansed.

I thought I was going out of my way to say that it wasn't the end. Clearly, I don't think it is the end. Why would I insist that there is 5 months, then 42 months, then 70 weeks left? And even then, it is not the 'end of the world'.


I really doubt this.
 
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tranquil

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Here it is in all its simplicity: (I don't know if it works the same for different years, I will look into it, but here is a potential literal fulfillment of these items)

Sukkot (15 Tishri, 5785) at the 6th Seal (dusk October 16, 2024) (Revelation 7:13-17)
Half an hour (Revelation 8:1)​
Trumpets 1-4, start of the 5th Trumpet
5 months (Revelation 9:5)​
15 Adar, 5785 (dusk March 14, 2025) (Saturday/ Sabbath) (6th Trumpet/ 2nd woe, start of the abomination in Jerusalem)
42 months (Revelation 11:2)​
15 Av, 5788 (dusk August 6, 2028) (start literally 70 weeks to 'finish the transgression') (Daniel 9:24)
7 weeks (Daniel 9:25)​
5 Tishri, 5789 (dusk September 24, 2028) (this is literally 1290 days from dusk March 14, 2025, the 'winter Sabbath start of the 'great tribulation' (Matthew 24:20-21) to dusk September 24, 2028)
63 weeks to finish out the 70 weeks​
End of 3 Tevet, 5790 (dusk December 9, 2029) (the exact end of Hanukah to 'anoint the most holy', the exact end of 70 weeks)
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Nowhere in the first Century can an exact 7 year period be shown. That idea is preterist rubbish and it flat out denies the given times in Revelation.
I see. You need something to be completely spelled out to you in order to recognize it. Too bad. It's not preterist rubbish at all. You don't have to be a preterist to believe that Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9:24-27. That's nonsense.

As for sacrifices and offerings, God has waived His requirement for them during this Church age. This does not mean they cannot be reinstated.
There's no reason for them to ever be reinstated. That would be an insult to Christ's "once for all" sacrifice. There would be no purpose for them.

God does not change; He wanted them before and it is clearly prophesied that He will have sacrifices and offerings again.
For what purpose? Please use scripture to support your answer. I'm not interested in your opinions without supporting scripture.
 
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eclipsenow

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WAR: Why rip OT prophecies about imminent wars out of context and make them about the future? The "Day of the Lord" was a common OT prophecy about an upcoming imminent war with one of Israel or Judah's enemies. Such prophecies usually involve images of an army like locusts with swords and fire. FUN FACT: Fire has been a part of warfare for thousands of years.

GOG: Why place Gog / Magog at the start of the 7 years? The 7 years comes from Ezekiel but is not mentioned in Revelation. Indeed, Gog / Magog is thrown up as a repeat of Revelation 19 but from a different perspective. We see Judgement Day a number of times in Revelation, such as the end of Chapter 6, 19 and 20. Gog / Magog represents the utter destruction of all God's enemies in an instant - not 7 years! Then Revelation immediately brings the New Heavens and New Earth.

I mean, where is the 7 years here? Some futurists sure take liberties with Revelation when they claim they're the only ones who read it 'literally'.

"7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them...."

Oh, what's that last bit? Sounds a bit like Chapter 6 hey? A throne?
Chapter 6:
"16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”"

Boy - gonna have to disguise Chapter 6 as something else or it might look like Revelation is repeating itself. If it's repeating itself, it might not be a future timetable at all - what then?

Dating: Does he still place the Lord returning around 2030 based on his very particular reading of the genealogies, so that we work backwards from there for the rough years on this chart to be slotted into history? How's that going?
 
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keras

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People are expecting the end of the world.
A simple reading of Revelation show the end of this present world doesn't happen until the Millennium reign of King Jesus is over.
The servants are sealed and the 'great multitude' comes out of the great tribulation.
Revelation 7:14 is not a reference the the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. It refers to the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. As the given sequence makes clear.
I already know that you don't think that it really means 'a half hour', I know that you think it really means 20 years or whatever it is. But I am just going with what it literally says.
That half hour mentioned in Revelation 8:1, is in heaven. A literal statement.
Is time in heaven the same as on earth?
I really doubt this.
Actually archaeologist's have shown that the year was only 360 days in ancient times. The change to 365.24 days came in about 1493 BC. When the Israelites made the exodus from Egypt.
The effect of a massive strike from a Coronal Mass Ejection could speed up our orbit by 5.24 days.
Here it is in all its simplicity
There is an appointed Day for when the Lord sends His vengeance and wrath, Habakkuk 2:3
It will be the Day no one knows, it will come as a thief, sudden and unexpected.
 
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keras

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I see. You need something to be completely spelled out to you in order to recognize it
Then spell out the start and completion of a exact seven year period in the first Century.
There's no reason for them to ever be reinstated. That would be an insult to Christ's "once for all" sacrifice. There would be no purpose for them.
Know the Mind of God do you?
Many prophesies tell of the reinstatement of the sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple.
I'll go along with what God wanted before and will again. Jeremiah 33:17-18
Explain how Daniel 9:27 can happen.
Boy - gonna have to disguise Chapter 6 as something else or it might look like Revelation is repeating itself.
Do you think God's wrath is a oncer?
However, EN has me on ignore, to his discredit.
His end times view is: there won't be an end time at all, Don't worry; be happy!
 
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keras

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Mainly that things start at the 6th Seal and end on Hanukah .
God's Plan for His Creation started with Adam and will end with the new heaven and earth. Revelation 21 to 22
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Then spell out the start and completion of a exact seven year period in the first Century.
It started with the beginning of the ministry of Christ. In the middle of that period He confirmed the new covenant with His blood while at the same time bringing an end to the need for the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. It ended when the gospel of Christ first went out to Israel before going to the Gentiles.

Know the Mind of God do you?
Aren't Christians supposed to know the mind of God? Do we not have the mind of Christ?

1 Corinthians 2:15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”But we have the mind of Christ.

Does this passage offend you?

Many prophesies tell of the reinstatement of the sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple.
I'll go along with what God wanted before and will again. Jeremiah 33:17-18
Explain how Daniel 9:27 can happen.
Why would God want animal sacrifices again? What purpose would they serve? Please use scripture to support your answer.
 
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Douggg

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Why place Gog / Magog at the start of the 7 years? The 7 years comes from Ezekiel but is not mentioned in Revelation. I
The final 7 years begin in Revelation with the rider on the white horse, given a crown.

The crown is that he will be anointed the King of Israel, making him the Antichrist.

The Gog/Magog event takes place right before then. So that is why it is not in Revelation, because the seals begin with the anointing of the Antichrist as the King of Israel.
 
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keras

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You have no evidence for a 7 year period. Of exactly 2520 days.
Beside the fact of what is Prophesied for the second half of 1260 days, has not yet happened.
”But we have the mind of Christ.
Paul cannot mean that we become all knowing, just that we desire to do His Commandments.
Why would God want animal sacrifices again? What purpose would they serve? Please use scripture to support your answer.
Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.
 
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