JW JW: Jehovah's witnesses theology- pagan trinity, Jesus and Michael, inspiration and other topics

[createdtoworship]

Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Deity of Christ, it follows that they reject the doctrine of the triune Godhead (the Trinity). And since one cannot be truly saved unless one believes that Jesus is God, they choose to forfeit salvation.

Jesus said (John 8:24): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. When Jesus called Himself "I AM" (the "he" is absent from the Greek, and should not have been added. Also "I am" should really be "I AM") He called Himself God. If one does not believe that He is God, then one cannot believe that Christ is both Lord and Saviour. And if one does not confess Him as Lord and Saviour, one cannot be saved. The quotation below is from the JW website:

but the trinity is not required essentials of salvation,

only belief in the duality.

90% of pastors and theologians miss that.

I debated soteriology for 4 years with people.

and taught a class for several years.

I quit teaching when I realized I had the gospel wrong.

I won't make that mistake again.

(many say, how can you get the gospel wrong?)

it's simple!

yes, but it's profound as well, look at this clip of the Gospel message....

Three Essentials to the Gospel Message and 5 Affirmations:

1. Bad News- Human depravity (inherited nature of Adam: genetically sinful)(conviction brought by Holy Spirit)
2. Good News-Christ’s atoning death (inherited the nature of Jesus)(repentance from unbelief).
3. Repentance from sin and Belief in Christ alone for salvation.

PRIMARY AFFIRMATIONS (must not be rejected but affirmed through time in the life of the Believer)


1. Christ’s sinlessness (Lamb without blemish, virgin birth implied)
2. Christ’s Deity (Son of God – first part of duality/ = Deity) [the term Jesus Christ the Lord- indicates deity]
3. Christ’s Humanity (Son of Man- second part of Duality-but One God.
4. God’s Unity (Oneness of God) (The Great Schema’ Deut 6:4)
5. Christ’s bodily resurrection (to show God’s plan had worked, and will work in all who have saving Faith in above terms)

Salvation can be acquired through belief in the first three premises.

the later list is things that cannot be outright rejected buy may take years to fully understand....


now notice that human depravity is required to be believed in.

and many don't believe in a literal hermeneutic of genesis 1-3.
but how can there be depravity without a literal genesis 1-3?

I guess one can believe that because we are sinners, we sin obviously, and prove that point.

but to believe we are utterly depraved is different than saying you are imperfect or sinners.

it's believing you are not able to get to heaven even if we say we are sorry a million times.

we need Christ.

so thats another story but interesting.

 

[createdtoworship]

Actually the first verse in the Bible reveals the Trinity. God = Hebrew Elohim = a uni-plural word = three Divine Persons, one God. Hence we have the following statements in Genesis 1:26 and 3:22 with "us" and "our": And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth... And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

that's an interesting study.

“Yet, while God is properly spoken of in the singular, He may also be spoken of in the plural. This verse refers to God as ELOHIM (Heb.), which is a plural. Yet the verb is singular. This terminology occurs else-where too. So, God is both singular and plural at the same time. This is not explained here, but as we continue to study we learn that we wor-ship one Godhead consisting of three separate and distinct individuals, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
In fact, all three Beings in God were present on this occasion. The Son was the active force in creation (John 1:1-3; Heb. 1:2; Col. 1:15), but the Father was also present (John 1:1), and so was the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2; cf. Job 26:13). Cf. vv 26,27 where God is again presented as being both plural and singular. There is only one true God, but that God consists of three individuals united in all aspects of their character and work.
This concept can best be understood by comparing it to the plural gods of idolatry. Idolatry has many gods having different character, different authority, different will and goals, often conflicting and even warring with one another. Some have authority in one part of the world or one area of life, others have authority in other areas, etc. They are plural gods, not just in the sense of plural beings, but in the sense of plural natures and wills, etc. The true God is three distinct individuals, but all united perfectly in will, character, authority over created things, etc., so that there is never difference or conflict of any kind. Hence, one united God, yet three Beings. We speak of God as “Him” or “He” refer-ring to the united whole, yet often three Beings are involved. While this may at times seem confusing that singular terms are used to refer to plural beings, remember that the Bible often does it, including in this very first verse.”

-above section from: Commentary on the Book of Genesis- David E. Pratte

 

[createdtoworship]

Interesting response. I'd like to share my thoughts.

It seems to me that YHWH is indeed a name, in that the Hebrews seem to have used it as one. For example, here's Boaz using YHWH as an everyday greeting:




I agree with you that Genesis 1 and Genesis 3 are likely referring to the divine council, later called the heavenly host in the NT.


I'll disagree here. I think our orthodox beliefs are on solid ground. In particular, I like seeing how the divinity of the Word of the Lord in the Aramaic Targums coincides with Christian beliefs. According to Alan Segal in "Two Powers in Heaven, such beliefs were widespread and considered orthodox in Judaism until the 2nd century AD.

this may be of help, it's a sermon i heard today:

"...this is one of the areas that the enemy
constantly attacks, we must affirm not only the fact of
the deity of the Holy Spirit, but also why we believe in
His deity. The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible,
but it is a convenient term that theologians use to
describe the three Persons of the one God. Perhaps the
term triunity would more accurately describe God. He
is not 1 + 1 + 1 = 3, but 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.
In Genesis 1:1 we read, "In the beginning God" The
Hebrew word translated "God" is Elohim, which is
plural for El (God in the singular). In Hebrew there is a
x singular, dual, and plural tense. "God" in the singular
is El, in the dual is Elah, and in the plural is Elohim.
There can be no denying that the word "Elohim" at least
suggests the triunity of God.
Continuing in Genesis 1:2 we read, "the Spirit of God
moved upon the face of the waters." The Holy Spirit is
the first Person of the Godhead to be identified
separately in the Bible. In Genesis 1:26 we read, "And
Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness." He did not say, "I will make man after my
image." In other words, the three Persons of the
Godhead were speaking jointly."

-Chuck Smith (founder of Calvary Chapel Movement, in His book, Charisma vs Charismania."

 

[Hoghead1]

Well, there is a problem here that I don't think you recognize. The way you have it, there are three separate personalities here speaking conjointly. Now that is sometimes called the social theory of the trinity. God is a cosmic society of three personalities working in harmony. However, to many, including myself, that is polytheism pure and simple.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, there is a problem here that I don't think you recognize. The way you have it, there are three separate personalities here speaking conjointly. Now that is sometimes called the social theory of the trinity. God is a cosmic society of three personalities working in harmony. However, to many, including myself, that is polytheism pure and simple.

each person magnifies the other person.

1X1X1=1

the math is sound.

they are not adding to each other, as in harmonizing.

1+1+1=3

they are three persons yes, but they magnify the purpose of each other.

the spirit magnifies the son who magnifies the father.

this is a very scriptural concept.

 

[Hoghead1]

It is also Scriptural concept that tear is but one God. So where is the one Good, the one personality here? We simply have three Gods agreeing and working in harmony with one another., That's tritheism, not monotheism.

 

[Wgw]

It is also Scriptural concept that tear is but one God. So where is the one Good, the one personality here? We simply have three Gods agreeing and working in harmony with one another., That's tritheism, not monotheism.

No, its not. Tritheism would require three essences.

 

[Hoghead1]

I disagree, Wgw. The social-theory notion of three separate personalities is polytheistic. Suppose you have , say, a 120-member symphony orchestra all working in great harmony, all sounding as one. OK, how many players are there? 120. You can't say since al the players share the same essence, human nature, that there was only player there. And you can't say that because they also worked together in tight harmony, there that was but one player, ether. Same with the social theory.

 

[createdtoworship]

I disagree, Wgw. The social-theory notion of three separate personalities is polytheistic. Suppose you have , say, a 120-member symphony orchestra all working in great harmony, all sounding as one. OK, how many players are there? 120. You can't say since al the players share the same essence, human nature, that there was only player there. And you can't say that because they also worked together in tight harmony, there that was but one player, ether. Same with the social theory.

God who is not 1+1+1, equalling 3....

is actually 1X1X1= one.

each member of the trinity does not add to each other, they are actually part of the same God but three different persons.

mutliple personality disorder, would be more like what God is.

but that is again an over simplification, because that would be three personalities in one God, not three persons in one God.

Systematic theology and the trinity were theological concepts invented by apologists to explain discrepancies in the Bible.

if someone never read the Bible, and never saw those discrepancies, neither above doctrines would have been developed.

the trinity would still exist, we would simply not know about it.

but God is also one, as the entire old testament dictates.

but at the same time three persons within one frame.

mathmatically it is multiplication of terms not addition.

another way to look at it is that God is beyond time and space, He is not bound by math, but bound by the limitations He himself devised.

quantum mathmatics, is at certain time contradicting to physics and the math regarding physics.

but both are true, it is just dependant on which dimensions your math is involved in.

so the trinity may in fact be mutliple dimensions.

I hope that answers your questions.

one way to learn about multiple dimensions is by looking up "flat lander" on you tube.

this explains the trinity.

also another book that is really good on the trinity,

is oneness pentacostals and the trinity.

I have not debated in theology threads for a while so I am alittle scratchy on it.

but that book helped me not focus on the three or one of the trinity, but on what the Bible says.

 

[Hoghead1]

I have no idea where you are going with the Gradyll. God consists of three persons, but not three personalities? That does not make any sense.

 

[createdtoworship]

that is what I am saying, exactly.

yes, three persons and not three personalities.

 

[MJFlores]

Why do you say "pagan trinity"? The formulators of Trinity were working very much within the Jewish tradition. True, because they spoke Greek, they used Greek words in describing Trinitarian Christology, but the concept preserves the strict monotheism of Judaism.

In contrast, JW Christology separates Jesus from God. The J-W website is somewhat ambiguous about the relationship of Jesus to God: What Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe? " So we do not worship Jesus, as we do not believe that he is Almighty God."

This is clearer: Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe in Jesus? | FAQ Who Is Jesus Christ? | Good News

"Unlike any other human, Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he was born on earth. (John 8:23) He was God’s first creation, and he helped in the creation of all other things. He is the only one created directly by Jehovah"

By being a "spirit person", is Jesus divine? Genesis 1-3 is very clear that only God created. But J-W says Jesus "helped"; that would seem to imply divine power. And, of course, there is the immortality to consider. So, whether or not being "his Son" makes Jesus divine is left unanswered:
"This strong bond of unity, however, does not make God and his Son, Jesus, indistinguishable from each other. They are two individuals. Each one has his own distinct personality. " Are Jesus and His Father One? | Readers Ask

This belief is a derivative of Arianism. Arianism is a pagan idea: from Eastern philosophy. I can see why the J-W website obfuscates the relationship of Jesus and God. If Jesus as "his Son" is also divine, that gives 2 gods, which is very much a "pagan" idea. OTOH, having a completely non-divine human (even as spirit) contradicts too much of scripture.

You wrote:

"Unlike any other human, Jesus lived in heaven as a spirit person before he was born on earth. (John 8:23) He was God’s first creation, and he helped in the creation of all other things. He is the only one created directly by Jehovah"

Isaiah 43:10 New International Version (NIV)

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

Now that came from the bible.

You said it yourself, that the Lord Jesus was created therefore he is not God.
Who is God then who created the Lord Jesus?

Isaiah 44:24 Good News Translation (GNT)

“I am the Lord, your savior;
I am the one who created you.
I am the Lord, the Creator of all things.
I alone stretched out the heavens;
when I made the earth, no one helped me.