Justification from Eternity

JM · Feb 13, 2012

All for whom Christ died will come to faith. Some Baptists believe this will happen even without the preaching of the Gospel, this is in error, they are anti-means Baptists. They deny that God uses any secondary means or even direct means in the saving of His people...but I'm getting off topic, sorry. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith.

Osage Bluestem · Feb 13, 2012

JM said:
All for whom Christ died will come to faith. Some Baptists believe this will happen even without the preaching of the Gospel, this is in error, they are anti-means Baptists. They deny that God uses any secondary means or even direct means in the saving of His people...but I'm getting off topic, sorry. I believe that we are saved by grace through faith.

Good. There was a hyper guy named beloved57 that I had vehement disagreements with that claimed that faith wasn't necessary for salvation. I would actually argue with him until I got angry.

JM · Feb 13, 2012

The 1689 was signed by William Kiffin who was sent as a representative of his church. Kiffin was an ultra high Calvinist and accused of being a hyper by his foes but the Confession reads, "This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow...etc. 15.3" In Waldron's exposition of the 1689 he writes, "Repentance, according to the Confession, is not a natural fear produced on fallen human nature by the law." The Confession rightly states that faith is a gift of God by which we recieve and rest on the finished work of Christ.

You can find works by Kiffin and Knollys on line in pdf, just convert them and read'em.

twin1954 · Feb 14, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
I must ask, do you believe that all of God's elect will be exposed to the gospel and come to faith in Christ before they die, barring of course the infants and mentally disabled?

If God has determined to save you and Christ accomplished that salvation for you then it is impossible that you will live without ever hearing the Gospel and believing. The preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe. Wherever God has a chosen sinner He will put that sinner and the Gospel together at some point.

Do you believe faith in Christ is required for salvation?

There is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. But our faith isn't what saves us Christ is. Faith lays hold of the finished work of Christ and when it does the love of God in salvation is shed abroad in our hearts.

Osage Bluestem · Feb 14, 2012

twin1954 said:
If God has determined to save you and Christ accomplished that salvation for you then it is impossible that you will live without ever hearing the Gospel and believing. The preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all that believe. Wherever God has a chosen sinner He will put that sinner and the Gospel together at some point.

There is no salvation apart from faith in Christ. But our faith isn't what saves us Christ is. Faith lays hold of the finished work of Christ and when it does the love of God in salvation is shed abroad in our hearts.

Glad to hear it. I believe that as well.

I just wanted to clarify because I think that's one of the tell tale signs a person has gone too far when they stop believing that faith is required for salvation. Like that beloved57 person.

twin1954 · Feb 15, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
Glad to hear it. I believe that as well.

I just wanted to clarify because I think that's one of the tell tale signs a person has gone too far when they stop believing that faith is required for salvation. Like that beloved57 person.

I was raised to believe that faith had nothing to do with salvation. It was a very difficult struggle with a lot of prayerful Bible study that brought me out of it. You tend to hang on with all your might to that which you were brought up to believe.

Osage Bluestem · Feb 15, 2012

twin1954 said:
I was raised to believe that faith had nothing to do with salvation. It was a very difficult struggle with a lot of prayerful Bible study that brought me out of it. You tend to hang on with all your might to that which you were brought up to believe.

I agree.

Where you a hardshell baptist?

twin1954 · Feb 15, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
I agree.

Where you a hardshell baptist?

Yeah.

Osage Bluestem · Feb 15, 2012

twin1954 said:
Yeah.

How often did you go to church and what were the services like?

twin1954 · Feb 16, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
How often did you go to church and what were the services like?

Depended on where they were meeting. Often we would go 3 times a month but if the meeting was too far away then we didn't go. They had a kind of circuit of churches that had meetings the 1st and 3rd Sunday of the month and others the 2nd and 4th. There may be up to 4 or 5 preaching elders at each service and all of them would preach in a given service. There would be 1/2 to 1 hour of singing acapela before the preaching. It sometimes would be 3 oclock before the preachers were done and then we would have a fellowship dinner. It was usually an all day affair. It has changed a lot since I was among them though.

Osage Bluestem · Feb 16, 2012

twin1954 said:
Depended on where they were meeting. Often we would go 3 times a month but if the meeting was too far away then we didn't go. They had a kind of circuit of churches that had meetings the 1st and 3rd Sunday of the month and others the 2nd and 4th. There may be up to 4 or 5 preaching elders at each service and all of them would preach in a given service. There would be 1/2 to 1 hour of singing acapela before the preaching. It sometimes would be 3 oclock before the preachers were done and then we would have a fellowship dinner. It was usually an all day affair. It has changed a lot since I was among them though.

I've never been to a hardshell service but my grandpa told me about them. His uncle and aunt were hardshell when he was growing up. He said they only went once or twice a month but when they did it was an all day event full of preaching and singing.

Apologetic_Warrior · Feb 20, 2012

Osage Bluestem said:
What are your thoughts on Justification from Eternity.

I was reading this and found it rather compelling:

Justified from Eternity Don Fortner « Feileadh Mor

I am with John Flavel on this one: A Blow At the Root of Antinomianism

Error 1: Justification from Eternity.

"That very mercy or privilege of justification, which God from all eternity, purely out of his benevolent love, purposed and decreed for his elect, was also in time purchased for them by the death of Christ, Rom. 5.9,10. where we are said to be "justified by his blood;" and he is said to have "made peace through the blood of his cross, to reconcile all things to himself," Col. 1.20. to be "delivered for our offences, and raised again for our justification," {560} Rom. 4.25. Once more, "That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses," 2 Cor. 5.19. God the Father had in the death of Christ, a foundation of reconciliation, whereby he became propitious to his elect, that he might absolve and justify them.

Reason 1. It is irrational to imagine, that men are actually justified before they have a being, by an immanent act or decree of God....

Reason 2. As this opinion is irrational, so it is unscriptural. For
1. The scripture frequently speaks of remission or justification as a future act, and therefore not from eternity, Rom. 4.23,24. "Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for ours also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him," &c. And, Gal. 3.8, "The scriptures foreseeing that God would justify the Heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham." The gospel was preached many years before the Gentiles were justified; but if they were justified from eternity, how was the gospel preached before their justification?" - John Flavel

JM · Sep 9, 2012

A few more worthy sermons on a the subject:

Justification From Eternity - SermonAudio.com
Justification From Eternity - Part 2 - SermonAudio.com

AW, we have been getting alone very well and I do not wish to engage in polemic battle right now. I just wanted to say I am against the error of antinomianism as well and Flavel is dealing with a symptom of bad theology and worried about Justification from Eternity, as if this doctrine is responsible for bad logic. It is therefore a strawman to bring up his arguments. I have defended, like both John Gill and John Brine, for the continued use of the moral Law by Christians contained in the Decalogue.

Apologetic_Warrior · Sep 9, 2012

JM said:
A few more worthy sermons on a the subject:

Justification From Eternity - SermonAudio.com
Justification From Eternity - Part 2 - SermonAudio.com

AW, we have been getting alone very well and I do not wish to engage in polemic battle right now. I just wanted to say I am against the error of antinomianism as well and Flavel is dealing with a symptom of bad theology and worried about Justification from Eternity, as if this doctrine is responsible for bad logic. It is therefore a strawman to bring up his arguments. I have defended, like both John Gill and John Brine, for the continued use of the moral Law by Christians contained in the Decalogue.

Sounds to me like we're on the same page, just looking at different parts from different angles. This is an "in house" debate as far as I'm concerned, and I'd rather not go the Puritanboard route. You're loved and appreciated brother JM, and if it were possible, I'd just soon go smoke a pipe with ya, share stories and have a few laughs. Cheers

JM · Sep 9, 2012

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Sounds to me like we're on the same page, just looking at different parts from different angles. This is an "in house" debate as far as I'm concerned, and I'd rather not go the Puritanboard route. You're loved and appreciated brother JM, and if it were possible, I'd just soon go smoke a pipe with ya, share stories and have a few laughs. Cheers

Smoking a pipe together, now we are talking. I haven't light up in almost two weeks.

JM · Jun 14, 2014

[SIZE=+2]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zIIQbLii1A

Jo[SIZE=+2]hn Gill e[SIZE=+2]xp[SIZE=+2]lains:

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]Justification is not only before faith, but it is from eternity, being an immanent act in the divine mind, and so an internal and eternal one; as may be concluded,

1. From eternal election: the objects of justification are God's elect; "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? it is God that justifies"; that is, the elect. Now if God's elect, as such, can have nothing laid to their charge; but are by God acquitted, discharged, and justified; and if they bore this character of elect from eternity, or were chosen in Christ before the world began; then they must be acquitted, discharged and justified so early, so as nothing could be laid to their charge: besides, by electing grace men were put into Christ, and were considered as in him before the foundation of the world; and if they were considered as in him, they must be considered as righteous or unrighteous; not surely as unrighteous, unjustified, and in a state of condemnation; for "there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ", Rom. 8:1 and therefore must be considered as righteous, and so justified: "Justified then we were, says Dr. Goodwin {13} when first elected, though not in our own persons, yet in our Head, as he had our persons then given him, and we came to have a being and an interest in him."

2. Justification may well be considered as a branch of election; it is no other, as one expresses it, than setting apart the elect alone to be partakers of Christ's righteousness; and a setting apart Christ's righteousness for the elect only; it is mentioned along with election, as of the same date with it; "Wherein", that is, in the grace of God, particularly the electing grace of God, spoken of before, "he hath made us accepted in the beloved", Eph. 1:6. What is this acceptance in Christ, but justification in him? and this is expressed as a past act, in the same language as other eternal things be in the context, he "hath" blessed us, and he "hath" chosen us, and "having" predestinated us, so he hath made us accepted; and, indeed, as Christ was always the beloved of God, and well pleasing to him; so all given to him, and in him, were beloved of God, well pleasing to him, and accepted with him, or justified in him from eternity.

3. Justification is one of those spiritual blessings wherewith the elect are blessed in Christ according to election-grace, before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3,4. That justification is a spiritual blessing none will deny; and if the elect were blessed with all spiritual blessings, then with this; and if thus blessed according to election, or when elected, then before the foundation of the world: and this grace of justification must be no small part of that "grace which was given in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world was", 2Tim. 1:9. We may say, says Dr. Goodwin {14}, of all spiritual blessings in Christ, what is said of Christ, that his goings forth are from everlasting--in Christ we were blessed with all spiritual blessings, #Eph 1:3 as we are blessed with all other, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ!

4. Christ became a Surety for his people from everlasting; engaged to pay their debts, bear their sins, and make satisfaction for them; and was accepted of as such by God his Father, who thenceforward looked at him for payment and satisfaction, and looked at them as discharged, and so they were in his eternal mind; and it is a rule that will hold good, as Maccovius {15} observes, "that as soon as one becomes a surety for another, the other is immediately freed, if the surety be accepted;" which is the case here and it is but a piece of common prudence, when a man has a bad debt, and has good security for it, to look not to the principal debtor, who will never be able to pay him, but to his good bondsman and surety, who is able; and so Dr. Goodwin {16} observes, that God, in the everlasting transaction with Christ, "told him, as it were, that he would look for his debt and satisfaction of him, and that he did let the sinners go free; and so they are in this respect, justified from all eternity."

5. The everlasting transaction, the same excellent writer thinks, is imported in 2Cor. 5:19. "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them". And the very learned Witsius {17} is of opinion, "that this act of God may be called, the general justification of the elect." And, indeed, since it was the determination of God, and the scheme and method he proposed to take in Christ for the reconciliation of the elect, not to impute their sins to them, but to his Son, their Surety; then seeing they are not imputed to them, but to him; and if reckoned and accounted to him, then not to them; and if charged to him, then they must be discharged from them, and so justified; and a non-imputation of sin to the elect, is no other than a justification of them; and thus the apostle strongly concludes the imputation of Christ's righteousness; which is the "formalis ratio", or the form of justification, from the non-imputation of sin, and the remission of it, Romans 4:6-8.

6. It was the will of God from everlasting, not to punish sin in the persons of his elect, but to punish it in the person of Christ; and that it was his will not to punish it in his people, but in his Son, is manifest from his setting him forth in his purposes and decrees, to be the propitiation for sin; and from his sending him forth in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin in the flesh; and from his being made sin and a curse, that his people might be made the righteousness of God in him. Now, as has been often observed, no new will can arise in God; God wills nothing in time, but what he willed from eternity; and if it was the eternal will of God not to punish sin in his people, but in his Son, then they were eternally discharged, acquitted from sin, and secured from everlasting wrath and destruction; and if they were eternally discharged from sin, and freed from punishment, they were eternally justified: Dr. Twisse {18} makes the very quiddity and essence of justification and remission of sin, which he takes to be the same, to lie in the will of God not to punish; and asserts, that this will not to punish, as it is an immanent act, was from eternity.

7. It deserves regard and attention, that the saints under the Old Testament, were justified by the same righteousness of Christ, as those under the New, and that before the sacrifice was offered up, the satisfaction given, and the everlasting righteousness brought in; for Christ's blood was shed for the remission of sins that were past, and his death was for the redemption of transgressions under the first Testament, Romans 3:25 Hebrews 9:15.Now if God could, and actually did, justify some, three or four thousand years before the righteousness of Christ was actually wrought out, taking his Son's word and bond as their Surety, and in a view of his future righteousness; why could he not, and why may it not be thought he did, justify all his elect from eternity, upon the word and bond of their Surety, and on the basis of his future righteousness, which he had engaged to work out, and which he full well knew he would most certainly work out? and if there is no difficulty in conceiving of the one, there can be none in conceiving of the other.
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stenerson · Jun 15, 2014

I've not read all the comments on this thread.. Great subject. Was hearing Fortner preaching on this yesterday. My question is this, does the wrath of God abide on His elect before they believe? Jesus tells us that the wrath of God will remain on those that refuse to believe. I always thought that implied that the wrath of God abided, but is turned away from those that do believe (the moment they believe).

JM · Jun 16, 2014

The answer given by Job Hupton might be of some help:

It is, I think, evident upon the face of this objection, that the reasonings of your mind are something like the following : "a person cannot be, at the same time, in a state of condemnation, and a state of justification; but unbelievers are in a state of condemnation; therefore, unbelievers are not in a state of justification." This reasoning is false, and it affects some other grand leading truths of the everlasting gospel, as much as it does eternal justification; truths which are delivered by the lip of divine eternal truth, in terms equally strong, positive, and unequivocal, with those in which the condemnation of unbelievers is expressed; and which it is thought you, Sir, with all your objections, would confess, as a part of your creed, and publish without hesitation, as the glory of the gospel : the truths to which I allude, are the eternity of God's love to his elect, their eternal blessedness in Christ, and their redemption from the curse by the death of Christ. The following arguments, framed upon the same principle as the above, which is supposed to militate with justification before faith, might be introduced, with some degree of plausibility, to prove that the love of God to the elect, their blessedness in Jesus, and their redemption are not prior to faith.

First, no man can be at the same time, a child of wrath, and an object of God's love ; but the elect are, by nature, the children of wrath even as others ; therefore, while they are in a state of nature, they are not the objects of God's love. Now contrast this argument with the declarations of scripture, and the fallacy of it will be obvious and the danger of adopting your mode of reasoning will appear. " I have loved thee with an everlasting love." "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." "Thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me." "God who is rich in mercy, for the great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, bath quickened us together with Christ."

Secondly, persons cannot in the nature of things, be under the blessing of God and the curse of the law at the same instant; but unbelievers are under the curse of the law, therefore unbelievers are not under the blessing of God. Now this is quite discordant with that inspired apostolic testimony; " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who bath blessed us with all spiritual blessings, in heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, according as he bath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." Here the eternal election of God's people, and their eternal blessedness, as founded upon that election, and inseparable from it are positively declared ; and will you conclude, that because these persons are said to be under the curse, while they are unbelievers, this testimony is untrue, and that they were not eternally blessed ? Surely not. Why then object on that ground to eternal justification ? Can you draw a line of distinction between justification and blessedness, and separate the one from the other ?

Thirdly, no man can be redeemed from the curse of the law and yet be under that curse ; but the people of God are under it till they believe in Jesus; therefore they are not redeemed till they believe in him. This argument is in direct opposition to that well known declaration : " Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." The manifestation of the redemption of Christ to the hearts of the redeemed adds nothing to it ; no, it was as complete when the Redeemer uttered those ever memorable words, " It is finished," as ever it will be; and the elect were as perfectly redeemed from the curse then, as they are after they believe, or as they will be when they are glorified. Much the same maybe said of justification ; neither the application of it to the heart, nor our faith in Jesus, contributes to the perfection of it, much less gives being to it, any more than the application of a plaister impregnates it with healing virtue, or gives being to that plaister; or the mouth by the act of receiving -food, adds to its goodness.

And here it may be proper to observe, that the unbelieving elect, stand in a twofold relation ; that through grace they are related to Christ, in whom they were chosen in eternity, and by nature to Adam ; that as they stand related to the former, they are, and ever were, within the bond of the everlasting covenant of grace in which their justification is, and ever was complete ; that as they stand related to the latter, they are under the covenant of works, and its dreadful menace ; that when God declares them condemned, he utters his voice in the law, and speaks truth of them, and to them, as they are related to Adam, as under the law, and as in their fallen state ; that he thus speaks with a gracious design for their conviction, to make them sensible of their need of Christ, and to demolish all their legal dependences, hopes, and expectations ; that having reduced them to despair of obtaining salvation by the ministration of death, he utters his voice in the gospel, speaks to them as they stand related to Jesus, declares the great transaction past, and brings down the immortal blessing of justification, and reveals it to them as .the fruit of his stupendous love laid up in him, in whom it pleased him that all fulness should dwell, even in eternity.

stenerson · Jun 16, 2014

Sounds good, (and scriptural).. I can't argue with that!

GQ Chris · Jun 16, 2014

Great clarification by twin that it is "by faith" that saves us, and not "through faith". I've heard too many boast about their own faith as if that was what saved them and not the work of Christ.

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