Justification from Eternity

[JM]

Now I am going to sart another controversy. I believe the last two words of that text should actually be the beginning of the next. Instead of that we should be holy and without blame in love it should be that we should be holy and without blame (period) In love having predestinated us to the adoption of children... Makes more sense to me.

I see the idea there but I'm a TR guy remember, don't mess with my text! You don't want a banjo pickin', pipe smoking, bow tie wearing martial artist coming at ya...do ya?

 

[twin1954]

I see the idea there but I'm a TR guy remember, don't mess with my text! You don't want a banjo pickin', pipe smoking, bow tie wearing martial artist coming at ya...do ya?

I am a TR guy as well but I think that in a few places it could have been better tanslated.

You don't want a skinny, guitar playin, suspender wearin martial artist wuppin you do you?

 

[JM]

I'm jealous...my wife will not allow me to wear suspenders. I threw them in the shopping cart numerous times over the years and she gives me a look like she'll beat me down right there in Walmart if I don't take them out. Don't mess with black women.

 

[twin1954]

I'm jealous...my wife will not allow me to wear suspenders. I threw them in the shopping cart numerous times over the years and she gives me a look like she'll beat me down right there in Walmart if I don't take them out. Don't mess with black women.

Tell her that they are good for the digestive system, which is true, because they don't bind the colon like a belt does.

 

[twin1954]

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, sorry.

 

[JM]

Tell her that they are good for the digestive system, which is true, because they don't bind the colon like a belt does.

Her retort, "I'll beat it outta ya if you'd like!" (kidding)

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Is there any Reformed people here who do not believe in justification from eternity?

 

[JM]

Is there any Reformed people here who do not believe in justification from eternity?

Most do not. It's a Baptist thang.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Most do not. It's a Baptist thang.

Whut fer?

 

[Hammster]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Whenever this comes up I am always drawn to this passage. Basically I think it's saying that yes, we were dead in a temporal sense (after all, we are sinners). It's also says that by nature we were children of wrath. But it doesn't say that we were actually children of wrath.

It's possible that I'm reading too much into this, but if we were children of wrath and then when we were justified temporally this changed, then God's wrath fell upon/was planned for someone whom Christ died for.

However, if we were by nature children of wrath, but not actually children of wrath, this problem is averted.

That probably wasn't nearly as structure as it was in my head, but there you go.

 

[twin1954]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Whenever this comes up I am always drawn to this passage. Basically I think it's saying that yes, we were dead in a temporal sense (after all, we are sinners). It's also says that by nature we were children of wrath. But it doesn't say that we were actually children of wrath.

It's possible that I'm reading too much into this, but if we were children of wrath and then when we were justified temporally this changed, then God's wrath fell upon/was planned for someone whom Christ died for.

However, if we were by nature children of wrath, but not actually children of wrath, this problem is averted.

That probably wasn't nearly as structure as it was in my head, but there you go.

 

[twin1954]

Whut fer?

Mostly because of the fact that historic Reformed doctrine is justification by faith rather than through faith. You must remember that Reformed usually means Covenant Theology as in Presbyterian. Reformed Baptists have actually only been around since the 70's as a denomination. They are not much more than dunking Presbyterians though.

 

[heymikey80]

The interaction of Reformed Christians and Baptists in England is pretty well-documented. The Confessions of the Baptist churches surround the activity creating the Westminster Confession, and follow the same lines. There's not a huge departure of one from the other.

As for eternal justification, I don't really see the treatment of "justification" as eternally past in Scripture. Eternal redemption, sure. But justification means something in particular, and even to Paul, "to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as justification, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God credits justification apart from works" Rom 4:5-6

I guess this should lead us to a better, if different, understanding of what is specifically meant by "justification", which is probably not exactly what we think it is today -- you or me. Suffice it to say though, that what Scripture places under the token of "justification" emerges from God's crediting faith to us.

 

[JM]

The interaction of Reformed Christians and Baptists in England is pretty well-documented. The Confessions of the Baptist churches surround the activity creating the Westminster Confession, and follow the same lines. There's not a huge departure of one from the other.

From what I've read it seems two streams of Calvinistic Baptists have always existed, side by side in often in the same churches. The 1689 is a re-write of the Savoy Declaration with the Savoy being based on the Westminster. Like in many Presbyterian churches a confession is binding on the Elders and Deacons but not the laity, there seems to be even more freedom from confessional subscription with the English Baptists, which is why you have the Strict & Particular Baptists and the Gospel Standard Strict & Particular Baptists.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

What are your thoughts on Justification from Eternity.

I do not know...bear with me....crunching...

Since justification is by faith alone, and regeneration comes before faith, this would imply salvation from eternity, which is in keeping with election from eternity, and of course eternal predestination.

But perhaps there are two different senses here, because there seems to be a denial that we were once wretched lost sinners in need of God's salvation, that is we were dead in trespasses and sins.

Maybe someone can clear up the muddy water for me...something tells me the solution has something to do with time...

 

[JM]

I posted some links on my blog below:

Justification From Eternity « Feileadh Mor

 

[heymikey80]

I think if we fuse justification as the sole saving grace we miss its meaning, and a major point of Presbyterian theology at the very least and I feel sure, Reformed theology more generally. Justification is one of multiple saving graces. Salvation is a process, carried out through graces dispensed on us from election and foreknowledge through glorification.

The WCF Larger Catechism identifies those graces and expounds on their meanings. They're a complete package, but many of them occur in time and thus appear in an order of salvation.

Justification is accomplished through Christ's obedience. But it's applied through the instrument of faith. Faith in Him credits us with His justification.

 

[twin1954]

I think if we fuse justification as the sole saving grace we miss its meaning, and a major point of Presbyterian theology at the very least and I feel sure, Reformed theology more generally. Justification is one of multiple saving graces. Salvation is a process, carried out through graces dispensed on us from election and foreknowledge through glorification.

The WCF Larger Catechism identifies those graces and expounds on their meanings. They're a complete package, but many of them occur in time and thus appear in an order of salvation.

Justification is accomplished through Christ's obedience. But it's applied through the instrument of faith. Faith in Him credits us with His justification.

To whom? Does it credit it to us or to God?

 

[JM]

For more on this subject read Job Hupton, "They who believe the eternal justification of the elect to be a truth, do not deny their condemnation by the law, but consider them as standing in a twofold capacity, members of Christ and children of Adam ; and in that justified in eternity as perfectly as if they were not condemned in time; and in this condemned in time, as completely as if they had not been justified in eternity. Nor is there any inconsistency in this, any more than there is in believing that Christ was, in different characters, at once infinitely blessed, and rigourously cursed ; infinitely blessed as the Son of the Father ; rigourously cursed as the surety of sinners."

THOUGHTS UPON THE DATE OF JUSTIFICATION

THOUGHTS ON THE SURETYSHIP OF CHRIST

ESSAYS AND LETTERS ON THE LOVE OF GOD

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I must ask, do you believe that all of God's elect will be exposed to the gospel and come to faith in Christ before they die, barring of course the infants and mentally disabled?

Do you believe faith in Christ is required for salvation?