Justification BY (no i mean THROUGH) Faith.

[@@Paul@@]

All this talk about eternal security over the last few week has got me thinking. scary, i know.

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.​

I think some of the answers may lie in the above verse and the difference of receiving something BY doing something and receiving something THROUGH something being done.

By appears to be the means BY which one receives, Through appears to be the method through which one receives.

If the verse in Romans was refering to the same "method" of justification for both the Jews and the Gentiles, they would have been grouped together. Clearly they (Jews and Gentiles) were kept separate for a reason.

Any thoughts?

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Circumcision by faith in God and His laws
Uncircumcision through faith that Jesus frees us from the law

Paul is saying that circumcision and uncircumcision are both acts of faith, and that one is not better than the other.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Circumcision by faith in God and His laws
Uncircumcision through faith that Jesus frees us from the law

Sorta, here's what i was eluding to...

(Rom 3:28 KJV) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Gal 3:11 KJV) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.​

Now read James.

(Jam 2:24 KJV) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Heb 10:38-39 KJV
(38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
(39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.​

Here Noah and Abraham DID something, they did it BY Faith. i.e., they believed AND THEN they did something.

Heb 11:7-8 KJV
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.​

Here the walls fell down and Rahab was saved BY Faith because they DID something.

Heb 11:30-31 KJV
(30) By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
(31) By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.​

to ADD to the OP.
A. Is "justification" is the process by which we are saved from death for our sins OR the process by which we receive something because we earned it?
B. In any case, when one is "justified BY faith", He obviously must obey God.... whether it be, building an ark, offering our son, leaving our home... etc. etc... So what is God asking of us today? is it the same as in the gospels? the Acts period? After Acts?
C. per the verses i quoted above, Were these people Paul was talking to "working" for something other than eternal life?

Paul is saying that circumcision and uncircumcision are both acts of faith, and that one is not better than the other.

The whole chapter is about Jew/Gentiles, i'm pretty sure the verse in the OP are referring to people, not an act of faith.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

The whole chapter is about Jew/Gentiles, i'm pretty sure the verse in the OP are referring to people, not an act of faith.

It is relating the acts to faith, becuase people back then would use that as a measure of salvation. Paul is simply trying to clarify that both will be saved.

 

[theseed]

"Faith

But are we not justified by faith? And faith brings us into grace (Rom. 5.1-2, Titus 3.7)? Are we not saved by faith? Absolutely, God has chosen faith to be the method whereby we receive justification, however, it is not the basis for justification. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the shedding of his blood, is the basis whereby we are justified. We are never relieved of our obligation to believe in Christ (John 3.16-17). But as we can see, faith is a work of the heart, which is produced by God (Psalm 51.10, Jeremiah 31.36, Ezekiel 36.26, Romans 10.9-13). “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the “word of Christ” or the “word of the LORD”—spoken by the evangelist (Romans 10.17, Ezekiel 37.4). Once we believe, we are justified by God’s given righteousness, and he is we are delivered from the wages of sin (Romans 6.23) In essence, faith is a work of grace began by God and is finished by God and mediated by Faith (Philippians 1.6, Hebrews 12.2). It w as grace that taught “our heart to fear” and grace “that leads us home” (John Newton)."
http://www.christianforums.com/t676708

 

[@@Paul@@]

Thanks for the post... I agree we through faith are saved. and in english, by and through can mean the same thing.

I think the implied meaning in Romans is that they are different.

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by1537 faith,4102 and uncircumcision through1223 faith.4102 ​

The very fact that the Holy Spirit makes a clear distinction here between the Jew and the Gentile by using two different words to explain the process of justification, should make one question what exactly was meant.

Lets look at the word "by".

G1537
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.​

now "through"...

G1223
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.​

Here's how i see it... when it's BY faith (ek ex) it's defined as the means by.. or because of this, we get that. Faith is not the channel here, something else it. Faith is the means, by reason of (or because of), something else.

When it's through (dia) faith, this defines faith as the channel of another act. regarding salvation that act is now grace. Faith in a sense is the channel for us to receive the grace of God...

BY faith is always followed by works of some kind, as described in Hebrews and James... which of course fits in with Romans 3 because Hebrews (just given by the title) was written to the Jews,,, as was james.

 

[theseed]

The very fact that the Holy Spirit makes a clear distinction here between the Jew and the Gentile by using two different words to explain the process of justification, should make one question what exactly was meant.

I agree. Look at Eph. 2.10. "saved by grace through faith"

 

[@@Paul@@]

I agree. Look at Eph. 2.10. "saved by grace through faith"

I agree, that clears up the issue of one's salvation for today.

Thanks...

 

[theseed]

The very fact that the Holy Spirit makes a clear distinction here between the Jew and the Gentile by using two different words to explain the process of justification, should make one question what exactly was meant.

I agree. Look at Eph. 2.10. "saved by grace through faith"

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

I agree. Look at Eph. 2.10. "saved by grace through faith"

Good point. Yet, I have no doubt that people will still refuse to believe. We aren't battling logic, but lies.

 

[@@Paul@@]

So the question still remains, what were the circumcision BY faith trying to be justified of (or from)? i.e. what were they trying to earn?

Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.​

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

So the question still remains, what were the circumcision BY faith trying to be justified of (or from)? i.e. what were they trying to earn?

Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
​

They wanted every Christian to first be a Jew

 

[@@Paul@@]

They wanted every Christian to first be a Jew

Not really... they thought the Gentiles were brought in on a perfect equality on all accounts,,, this clearly was not the case yet.

The Jews were doing something in order to get something,,, they assumed the gentiles would have the same task.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Not really... they thought the Gentiles were brought in on a perfect equality on all accounts,,, this clearly was not the case yet.

The Jews were doing something in order to get something,,, they assumed the gentiles would have the same task.

That may have been a problem, but I am certain that Paul was specifally addressing the belief that Gentiles had to become Jewish to be saved.

 

[@@Paul@@]

That may have been a problem, but I am certain that Paul was specifally addressing the belief that Gentiles had to become Jewish to be saved.

well, tell me where prior to Paul that anyone ever talked about "salvation" in the sense you are thinking.

and just for clarification.. I am a pre-millenial baptist. So, i see the purpose during acts as revolving around Israel and their hope of a messianic kingdom.......... So i don't think the Jew, during the acts period was working to save their individual souls,,, but the nation as a whole.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

well, tell me where prior to Paul that anyone ever talked about "salvation" in the sense you are thinking.

and just for clarification.. I am a pre-millenial baptist. So, i see the purpose during acts as revolving around Israel and their hope of a messianic kingdom.......... So i don't think the Jew, during the acts period was working to save their individual souls,,, but the nation as a whole.

There a quite a few references to salvation on this issue.

 

[theseed]

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.​

I don't know. I will try to fgure it out later.

​

 

[theseed]

Here is what I found in Matthew Henrey's complete commentary.

From all this he draws this conclusion (v. 28): That a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

III. In the close of the chapter he shows the extent of this privilege of justification by faith, and that it is not the peculiar privilege of the Jews, but pertains to the Gentiles also; for he had said (v. 22) that there is no difference: and as to this, 1. He asserts and proves it (v. 29): Is he the God of the Jews only? He argues from the absurdity of such a supposition. Can it be imagined that a God of infinite love and mercy should limit and confine his favours to that little perverse people of the Jews, leaving all the rest of the children of men in a condition eternally desperate? This would by no means agree with the idea we have of the divine goodness, for his tender mercies are over all his works; therefore it is one God of grace that justifies the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith, that is, both in one and the same way. However the Jews, in favour of themselves, will needs fancy a difference, really there is no more difference than between by and through, that is, no difference at all. 2. He obviates an objection (v. 31), as if this doctrine did nullify the law, which they knew came from God: "No," says he, "though we do say that the law will not justify us, yet we do not therefore say that it was given in vain, or is of no use to us; no, we establish the right use of the law, and secure its standing, by fixing it on the right basis. The law is still of use to convince us of what is past, and to direct us for the future; though we cannot be saved by it as a covenant, yet we own it, and submit to it, as a rule in the hand of the Mediator, subordinate to the law of grace; and so are so far from overthrowing that we establish the law." Let those consider this who deny the obligation of the moral law on believers.

http://www.gospelcom.net/eword/comments/romans/mh/romans3.htm

 

[Bro. Gabriel]

We're saved by Grace.

Our reception of Grace from God is justified or made evident by Faith.

Our Faith is justified or made evident by good Works.

 

[@@Paul@@]

We're saved by Grace.

Our reception of Grace from God is justified or made evident by Faith.

Our Faith is justified or made evident by good Works.

If it's by works it's no longer grace, whether works of the law or good works makes no difference. Now, you say, in order to get the grace of God we need to be justified by faith, which is made evident by good works.
if it's BY faith which is made evident in good works then it's those good works which justify us, NOT the faith. This would be the definition of BY Faith i.e. faith is the method BY which we receive the grace.

So, let me some up what you said: we are saved by Grace (which the Apostle calls a FREE gift), we are "rendered righteous" in order to receive the grace BY faith which is proven by our good works. So in a sense, we are saved (in this process) by good works because they are what justify us in the end.
This process could also be explained as "justified BY faith THROUGH (or because of) good works". Faith is the means; good works the method, which proves our faith.

We today are justified BY grace THROUGH faith. Grace is the means; Faith (the belief) is the method BY which we get the grace. If it’s by grace it’s not by works.

I don't by how Matthew Henry explains it, seem the "easy way out". There was a clear difference between the Jew and Gentile during the acts period. The Jews were working for the hope of their fathers; the gentiles had no such promise. They were simply "brought along for the ride" to "provoke Israel to jealously"...

Act 3:19-20 KJV
(19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
(20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.
Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them (Israel) ..., that they (Israel) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
​

Acts 3 clearly says if Israel will repent, Jesus Christ will return. Acts 26 adds "works meet for repentance", repenting was not enough.

I think Justification BY faith was referring to the Jew doing "works meet for repentance" in regards to the nation repenting in order to receive the promise made to their fathers... As far as Paul knew, even in Acts 26 there was still hope of this fulfillment....

Justification through faith would be the process by which Gentiles were brought in to share Israel's spiritual things. Gentiles were never required to do "works meet for repentance" nor were they ever told to repent and then Christ would return...

I mean, just the fact that Paul says we are "justified FREELY by the grace of God", Israel was "justified BY faith" and yet the gentiles were "justified through faith" should make us stop and think. Is it by grace or faith? Those are two entirely different things.