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just wondering...

JohnMarsten

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in another thread the concept of God knowing the end from the beginning is discussed.

IMO He knows the end from the beginning...

Now I was wondering about EGW (no bashing intended!) and her saying that God would have come already if people had been working more dilligently (my wording). I think that took place somewhere in the 1880s...

So according to EGW God delayed everything because the SDA folks had not worked sufficiently, OK, I think someone said in this forum it was not because they didnt work efficiently but rather because their characters were not polished enough or something...

Now I dont want go into that discussion again...

What I was thinking now is this:

What does the 2nd coming depend on?

If people had their charaters polished in time He would have made an end to everything in the 18 hundreds... that would not only mean that I and probably everyone in this forum hadnt been born and stuff but that the whole book of life theory would be in danger, cause if God intended to come in the 80s but had to change plans lateron, did He know that before? if not, did He add our names into the book?

What is more interesting in regard to the dependency of the 2nd coming is the fact that there are certain key prophecies... lets say Daniel and Revelation are the most important ones...

How does it work?

I mean if the SDA people of the 1880s had polished their characters (or fulfilled the necessary stuff...) would it all have come to pass as prophecied?

What if the SDA people never get so far?

Will God further delay the fulfillment of those prophecies?

---

My personal belief here is that God knows the day and the hour... never ever to be delayed, His prophecies are true and will come to pass on their designated day... no SDA folks can speed things up nor cause them to be delayed...
 

JohnMarsten

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Where does Ellen White say the reason God didn't come to collect the Saints was because the SDA's didn't work enough?
...I would like to read about this teaching.

like I said, I am not sure about that, think it was connected with their characters...
 
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JohnMarsten

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Apparent Delay





Ellen G. White Statements
On the Apparent Delay of the Second Advent


(Arranged in chronological order)

(1868) “The long night of gloom is trying; but the morning is deferred in mercy, because if the Master should come, so many would be found unready. God's unwillingness to have His people perish has been the reason for so long delay” (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, p. 194).
(1883) “The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.
“God had committed to His people a work to be accomplished on earth. The third angel's message was to be given, the minds of believers were to be directed to the heavenly sanctuary, where Christ had entered to make atonement for His people. The Sabbath reform was to be carried forward. The breach in the law of God must be made up. The message must be proclaimed with a loud voice, that all the inhabitants of earth might receive the warning. The people of God must purify their souls through obedience to the truth, and be prepared to stand without fault before Him at His coming.
“Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward.
“But in the period of doubt and uncertainty that followed the disappointment, many of the advent believers yielded their faith. Dissensions and divisions came in. The majority opposed with voice and pen the few who, following in the providence of God, received the Sabbath reform and began to proclaim the third angel's message. Many who should have devoted their time and talents to the one purpose of sounding warning to the world, were absorbed in opposing the Sabbath truth, and in turn, the labor of its advocates was necessarily spent in answering these opponents and defending the truth. Thus the work was hindered, and the world was left in darkness. Had the whole Adventist body united upon the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, how widely different would have been our history!
“It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, happy people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in ‘because of unbelief’ (Heb. 3:19). Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them.
“For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years” (Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 67-69).
(1884) “If all who had labored unitedly in the work in 1844 had received the third angel's message, and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would have been shed upon the world. Years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people.
“It was not the will of God that Israel should wander forty years in the wilderness; He desired to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there, a holy, happy people. But ‘they could not enter in because of unbelief’ (Heb. 3:19). Because of their backsliding and apostasy, they perished in the desert, and others were raised up to enter the promised land. In like manner, it was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be so long delayed, and His people should remain so many years in this world of sin and sorrow. But unbelief separated them from God. As they refused to do the work which He had appointed them, others were raised up to proclaim the message. In mercy to the world, Jesus delays His coming, that sinners may have an opportunity to hear the warning, and find in Him a shelter before the wrath of God shall be poured out” (The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, pp. 291, 292).
(1896) “If those who claimed to have a living experience in the things of God had done their appointed work as the Lord ordained, the whole world would have been warned ere this, and the Lord Jesus would have come in power and great glory. For God has appointed a day in the which He will judge the world. He tells us when that day shall come,–‘This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come’” (Review and Herald, October 6, 1896).
(1898) “By giving the gospel to the world it is in our power to hasten our Lord's return. We are not only to look for but to hasten the coming of the day of God. 2 Peter 3:12, margin. Had the church of Christ done her appointed work as the Lord ordained, the whole world would before this have been warned, and the Lord Jesus would have come to our earth in power and great glory” (The Desire of Ages, p. 633, 634).
(1900) “Had the purpose of God been carried out by His people in giving to the world the message of mercy, Christ would, ere this, have come to the earth, and the saints would have received their welcome into the city of God” (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 6, p. 449).
(1900) “Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own” (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 69).
(1901) “It [the coming of the Lord] will not tarry past the time that the message is borne to all nations, tongues, and peoples. Shall we who claim to be students of prophecy forget that God's forbearance to the wicked is a part of the vast and merciful plan by which He is seeking to compass the salvation of souls?” (Review and Herald, June 18, 1901).
(1901) “We may have to remain here in this world because of insubordination many more years, as did the children of Israel; but for Christ's sake, His people should not add sin to sin by charging God with the consequence of their own wrong course of action” (Evangelism, p. 696).
(1903) “I know that if the people of God had preserved a living connection with Him, if they had obeyed His Word, they would today be in the heavenly Canaan” (General Conference Bulletin, March 30, 1903).
(1904) “If all who had labored unitedly in the work of 1844 had received the third angel's message and proclaimed it in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts. A flood of light would have been shed upon the world. Years ago the inhabitants of the earth would have been warned, the closing work would have been completed, and Christ would have come for the redemption of His people” (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 8, p. 115).
(1909) “If every soldier of Christ had done his duty, if every watchman on the walls of Zion had given the trumpet a certain sound, the world might ere this have heard the message of warning. But the work is years behind. While men have slept, Satan has stolen a march upon us” (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, p. 29).
 
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Pythons

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Interesting - I just caught something in the first few lines that jumped right off the page...

Ellen White
It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional

Ellen White
Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward.

I get it - if between 1846 and 1880 the Adventists held fast to their faith that God the Father has a body of flesh...
...And that God the Father exuded Christ in time and more fully proclaimed the Sabbath truth.
...THEN God would have come.

It all makes sense now.
 
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GuardianShua

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The time of the end will go beyond what people think. The last end was in 133 AD. Two days from then is 2133 AD.

Habakkuk 2

1 I will stand at my watch
and station myself on the ramparts;
I will look to see what he will say to me,
and what answer I am to give to this complaint.

The LORD’s Answer
2 Then the LORD replied:
“Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a messenger may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come
and will not delay.

Ellen in her own writing said she was not a prophetess.
 
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JohnMarsten

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The time of the end will go beyond what people think. The last end was in 133 AD. Two days from then is 2133 AD.

Habakkuk 2

1 I will stand at my watch
and station myself on the ramparts;
I will look to see what he will say to me,
and what answer I am to give to this complaint.

The LORD’s Answer
2 Then the LORD replied:
“Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a messenger may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come
and will not delay.

Ellen in her own writing said she was not a prophetess.

you are mistaken here, she said she was more than the word 'prophet' could ever mean...
 
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JohnMarsten

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Interesting - I just caught something in the first few lines that jumped right off the page...

Ellen White
It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional

Ellen White
Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward.

I get it - if between 1846 and 1880 the Adventists held fast to their faith that God the Father has a body of flesh...
...And that God the Father exuded Christ in time and more fully proclaimed the Sabbath truth.
...THEN God would have come.

It all makes sense now.

like I observed many times, there is an answer for everything in SDAizm...

the whole thing gets a little bit twisted here...

Now if all is conditional, how can we be sure that revelation and daniel are still of any importance, according to egw the original plan of the 2nd coming was somewhere in the 1880s... I guess that this must apply to revelation and daniel as well... so were things like the mark of the beast held back for a later time or completely overthrown...?

how can we be sure that SDAizm is still valid in any sense, since everything is conditional?

it would be only logical to assume that God has totally changed plans, I mean SDAizm didnt work in the 1880s, because of them the 2nd coming was delayed, now another 130 years have passed... will they ever get cracking?

I remember one of those EGW guys at church, he even came along with the concept the Jesus might actually never return if the church doesnt do what it is supposed to do... in regard to all of this, I must say his theory wasnt that farfetched...
 
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JohnMarsten

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"Ellen in her own writing said she was not a prophetess." This is what I read in a book she wrote. If she changed her mind at a later date, then I am not aware of that.

"Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word "prophet" signifies". {1SM 32.4}
 
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