Just Wondering...

[Netzari5730]

Colossians 3:9-13
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Messiah is all and in all. (emphasis mine)
12Therefore, as the elect of G`d, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Messiah forgave you, so you also must do.

How does this apply to Christians and Messianics who say they are not "Christian"? The only difference between the titles of Messianic and Christian is the language source. I find it interesting that so-called Messianics seperate themselves from the Christians.

I know that there are differences as far as Torah observances and the holding to certain holidays, but that doesn't make the gentile believers in Yeshua/Jesus any less a brother or sister in Christ/Messiah. I have often observed that some (not all of course) but some Messianics tend to have this "I'm the favourite child" attitude. I have observed Messianics that do not hold to the whole Torah as valid. Sure, they will keep the ten and eat a hot ham and swiss as they do (which, rabbinically speaking is a double wammy! ham = unclean, meat and cheese together = bad, bad, bad). I am not saying this is hypocrasy, though some would, I am merely pointing out "levels" of observance. but I wonder, those that hold to the ten but eat pork, are they still saved? And if so, why can't the one who worships on Sunday be saved? What if he has saturdays off and does no work in that day? I'm just wondering, not really looking for an answer...

And why is it that Messianics are holding to the teachings of the Rabbis? Rabbinical Judaism isn't Judaism. Wellllll.... maybe it is Judaism, but it certainly isn't the true Hebrew faith of the Tanakh'. Don't get me wrong, the Rabbinical Teachings do have their value, in as much as they don't trespass the Torah by contradicting it, confusing it, or cancelling it. And not just the Torah, or the Tanakh', but also the B'rith Chadashah. Now that is where it gets iffy. Rabbinical teaching that contradicts, confuses and cancels the B'rith Chadashah is not of God...period. I find it interesting that many will use Rabbinical Teachings to interprete the B'rith Chadashah. Why do they do that? Don't they know that it was Rabbinical Judaism that crucified/impaled/hung/orwhateveryouwannacallit our Lord/Adon Messiah/Christ/Christos to the tree/cross/crucifix/pole/stake/orwhatevereveryouwannacallit??? I'm just wondering, and not really looking for an answer...

"It's something elsewhere... illusive..." like Obi Wan Kenobi said in Episode I. "Da liph'ney mi atah omed!" ~ Know before whom you stand!

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

How does this apply to Christians and Messianics who say they are not "Christian"? The only difference between the titles of Messianic and Christian is the language source. I find it interesting that so-called Messianics seperate themselves from the Christians.

There may not be a difference in the titles, yet there is a difference in the thought. Christian thought(in most areas who claim Christianity) is known to say the Torah and other sacred writings are nailed to the cross. Matthew 5:17-20
So therefore if the Sabbath is not abolished then why doesn't Christianity hold to this day which is actually HaShem's Day. Why is the whole world going to be going to Jerusalem for the HaShem's Feast? Because HE commaned it. Are we Goyim Grafted into the Main Branch(who was established by HaShem)? Yes we are. How do you become ONE with HaShem? Don't you look to the ONE established as King of Kings and Adoni of Adonim(don't know if I spelt this right), Yeshua HaMashiach? Yes very much so. So for a time the Jewish sector has been blinded to this fact of History. Time will tell and then the Jewish sector will grasp hold after becoming jealous of what Those have in Yeshua HaMashiach. Only the Ruach can bring their hearts to out Adoni(who by the way was established by HaShem). Didn't Yeshua come as Moshe said He would? Yes, Yeshua was like Moshe and that we should LISTEN to Him.
2Co 6:1-18 HNV Working together, we entreat also that you not receive the grace of God in vain, (2) for he says, "At an acceptable time I listened to you, in a day of salvation I helped you." Behold, now is the acceptable time. Behold, now is the day of salvation. (3) We give no occasion of stumbling in anything, that our service may not be blamed, (4) but in everything commending ourselves, as servants of God, in great endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses, (5) in beatings, in imprisonments, in riots, in labors, in watchings, in fastings; (6) in pureness, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in sincere love, (7) in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the armor of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, (8) by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; as deceivers, and yet true; (9) as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as punished, and not killed; (10) as sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. (11) Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians. Our heart is enlarged. (12) You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. (13) Now in return, I speak as to my children, you also be open wide. (14) Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? Or what communion has light with darkness? (15) What agreement has Messiah with Beliya`al? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever? (16) What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people." (17) Therefore, "'Come out from among them, and be separate,' says the Lord. 'Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you. (18) I will be to you a Father. You will be to me sons and daughters,' says the Lord Almighty."

2Ti 3:15-17 HNV From infancy(From infancy, this is when Yeshua was an Infant or before), you have known the sacred writings(These are known to be the Tanakh) which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith, which is in Messiah Yeshua. (16) Every writing inspired by God is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction which is in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2Ti 3:1-7 HNV But know this, that in the last days, grievous times will come. (2) For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, (3) without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, (4) traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; (5) holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof. Turn away from these, also. (6) For of these are those who creep into houses, and take captive gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, (7) always learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I know that there are differences as far as Torah observances and the holding to certain holidays, but that doesn't make the gentile believers in Yeshua/Jesus any less a brother or sister in Christ/Messiah.

There is a difference. What did Yeshua teach? Didn't He say that He is speaking the Word of HaShem? Yes He did. So if He was speaking as a Prophet or even a plain old messenger would then why don't people listen? Yet there is a difference between the two, Yeshua was Appointed HaMashiach by HaShem. Does that make Him and HaShem ONE? HaShem gave Him the title HaMashiach. Wasn't Moshe HaMashiach for Israel? Yes he was, the difference is now the WHOLE WORLD is now involved. But we still go to the source who is HaShem, only now we have a High Priest to stand before HIM, to plead our case, to bring our prayers and supplication before HaShem. Yet He, Yeshua doesn't even know the DAY OF His Return, Only HaShem does. Don't you think Yeshua HaMashiach is Anticipating as we are that we are in THE SEASON OF HIS RETURN? YES. COME ADONI YESHUA HAMASHIACH COME!!!
2Pe 2:7-8 HNV and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked (8) (for that righteous man dwelling among them, was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds)

I have often observed that some (not all of course) but some Messianics tend to have this "I'm the favourite child" attitude.

I have observed Messianics that do not hold to the whole Torah as valid. Sure, they will keep the ten and eat a hot ham and swiss as they do (which, rabbinically speaking is a double wammy! ham = unclean, meat and cheese together = bad, bad, bad). I am not saying this is hypocrasy, though some would, I am merely pointing out "levels" of observance.

What level of obedience does a Woman have for her Husband? What level of Authority do children have over there Father? What level of Authority do we each have in the Kingdom to come? We have much authority if only we are Obediant to YHWH's WAYS which Yeshua was teaching. What are those ways? We are in constant search of what is TRUTH, at least I hope people would take the initiative to go as in a RACE, TO COME OUT AT THE FINISH no matter what place you come. Yet to be perfect in a Race such as to DO the WILL OF YHWH requires our WHOLE SELF.

but I wonder, those that hold to the ten but eat pork, are they still saved? And if so, why can't the one who worships on Sunday be saved? What if he has saturdays off and does no work in that day? I'm just wondering, not really looking for an answer...

If they aren't holding to the ten then why would they hold to any of the others? Who shall be saved? I reckon we will find out when HaMashiach comes won't we, for He, Adoni Yeshua will come with an IRON ROD. What does that have to do with the Thousand years? Well, if a child of YHWH's is lawless then they will be punished. And since ALL MANKIND is HIS, HE will have the Lawless ones punished. Remember Yeshua came speaking the WORD of YHWH.

And why is it that Messianics are holding to the teachings of the Rabbis? Rabbinical Judaism isn't Judaism. Wellllll.... maybe it is Judaism, but it certainly isn't the true Hebrew faith of the Tanakh'. Don't get me wrong, the Rabbinical Teachings do have their value, in as much as they don't trespass the Torah by contradicting it, confusing it, or cancelling it. And not just the Torah, or the Tanakh', but also the B'rith Chadashah. Now that is where it gets iffy. Rabbinical teaching that contradicts, confuses and cancels the B'rith Chadashah is not of God...period.

Rom 3:1-31 HNV Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision? (2) Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God. (3) For what if some were without faith? Will their lack of faith nullify the faithfulness of God? (4) May it never be! Yes, let God be found true, but every man a liar. As it is written, "That you might be justified in your words, and might prevail when you come into judgment." (5) But if our unrighteousness commends the righteousness of God, what will we say? Is God unrighteous who inflicts wrath? I speak like men do. (6) May it never be! For then how will God judge the world? (7) For if the truth of God through my lie abounded to his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? (8) Why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), "Let us do evil, that good may come?" Those who say so are justly condemned. (9) What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously charged both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin. (10) As it is written, "There is no one righteous; no, not one. (11) There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God. (12) They have all turned aside. They have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good, no, not, so much as one." (13) "Their throat is an open tomb. With their tongues they have used deceit." "The poison of vipers is under their lips;" (14) "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." (15) "Their feet are swift to shed blood. (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways. (17) The way of shalom, they haven't known." (18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes." (19) Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God. (20) Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin. (21) But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the Torah and the Prophets; (22) even the righteousness of God through faith in Yeshua the Messiah to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, (23) for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; (24) being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Messiah Yeshua; (25) whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance; (26) to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Yeshua. (27) Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what manner of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. (28) We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. (29) Or is God the God of Jews only? Isn't he the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, (30) since indeed there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith. (31) Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.

I find it interesting that many will use Rabbinical Teachings to interprete the B'rith Chadashah. Why do they do that? Don't they know that it was Rabbinical Judaism that crucified/impaled/hung/orwhateveryouwannacallit our Lord/Adon Messiah/Christ/Christos to the tree/cross/crucifix/pole/stake/orwhatevereveryouwannacallit??? I'm just wondering, and not really looking for an answer...

You are partially correct in saying Rabbinical Judaism hung Him up, yet you forgot to include EVERY HUMAN BEING EVERY BORN.

"It's something elsewhere... illusive..." like Obi Wan Kenobi said in Episode I. "Da liph'ney mi atah omed!" ~ Know before whom you stand!

And YHWH said through Yeshua by way of John:
Rev 22:1-21 HNV He showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, (2) in the middle of its street. On this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruits, yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (3) There will be no curse any more. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants serve him. (4) They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. (5) There will be no night, and they need no lamp light; for the Lord God will illuminate them. They will reign forever and ever. (6) He said to me, "These words are faithful and true. The Lord God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon." (7) "Behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." (8) Now I, Yochanan, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. (9) He said to me, "See you don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God." (10) He said to me, "Don't seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. (11) He who acts unjustly, let him act unjustly still. He who is filthy, let him be filthy still. He who is righteous, let him do righteousness still. He who is holy, let him be holy still." (12) "Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. (13) I am the Alef and the Tav, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (14) Blessed are those who do his mitzvot, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. (15) Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (16) I, Yeshua, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star." (17) The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" He who hears, let him say, "Come!" He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely. (18) I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book. (19) If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book. (20) He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amein! Yes, come, Lord Yeshua. (21) The grace of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah be with all the holy ones. Amein.

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730

As in sects of Judaism they added or subtracted from YHWH's WORD and so the Goyim have added and taken away from Yeshua's Words which are YHWH's Words. So as we near the time of His return we will see many wonders and tribulations throughout the world. Make sure you have oil for your lamp. For the times will be Dark and have been.

Keep in mind I am only speaking what I have learned during my life. I am only Dust and Water of the Earth.

Shalom and Shalom,

Tag

 

[Sephania]

If we do not hold to Rabbinic teachings, they that would include the teaching of the greatest Rabbi, wouldn't it?

 

[I’m_Lesha]

Netzari, I have ask these question within myself also. (I am not Messianic so I dare not ask them out loud. )

I know the Bible says that the Sabbath is a sign between God and His true people that they are His people and He is their God. (I don't take that to mean just Jews, but anyone who wishes to live by His ways.) So would those who do not hold to this are not His people and not saved?

It is hard for me to call myself a Christian, because of the falseness that goes with the name. I do not believe the way a typical Christian believes, therefore, I do not like to call myself Christian. (but I am not Messianic either) Also I have a hard time with the "holier than thow" attitude of some Messianics, but not all. I haven't found that too much on this forum.....yet. But most Christians also have this attitude.

I believe God judges all and He judges by the heart and knowledge they were given. Those who have received less knowledge, but lives by that knowledge receives more grace/forgiveness. Those who have received much knowledge and lived by it does not need as much grace/forgiveness. Also, those who receive more and live by it less receive more punishment.

For example, the Bible says that Yeshua came for the lost Jew, and that the gospel was to be preached to them first. I believe the reason isn't because the Jews were better than anyone else, but because the world was watching the Jews and knew the Messiah was to come from them. (Jesus did talk to the woman at the well who was a gentile shunned by the Jews, but that is another story ) The Bible said to present the gospel to the Jew first, then to the gentile, but it also says that the Jew will be the first to judgement and thrown into tribulation and anguish.

Romans 2
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

I believe this is because the Jews have been given the most knowledge from the beginning, so they should know better.

We should not sit in judgment of anyone, (even though this is also a fault of mine ) because God only can read the sincerity of the heart and knows the amount of knowledge one is given. But that is no excuse for those who wish not to change for Yahweh and do not study, but listen to the lies, and choose to believe them.

Enough rambling for one thread, sorry.

Peace and blessings,

Lesha

 

[mjterry87]

I had to change it

 

[visionary]

To the law and the testamony, if they speak not according to the Word it is because there is no light in them.

God has winked in the past at ignorance until the time of the fulfillment of the gentiles, and now we, whether they know it or not, have moved into the truth as it is in the Word of God. Defiance is a better description of those that have heard the truth about Yeshua and Torah and still persist in traditions of men.

This shift in thinking is the work of the Lord upon His people as He called us home. It is not something that we should think righteously about, just humbly acknowledge. For as we are all sinners, we can only acknowledge the righteousness of Yeshua in all His ways and His acts. This gathering in the latter days under Yeshua and the Torah is the work of the Lord. He declared it from the beginning and we are just now fulfilling this part, which we have declared is our part of the prophecy. We are diligent searchers of the truth as it is found in Yeshua, and looking for the narrow path which we are to follow. We are seeking the kingdom of Yeshua, the salvation found in His High Priestly services and the seven Feasts of God. I may be presumptious, in including everyone here at the forum but I believe that for the most part it is true. These that have gathered here, are seekers of the truth, the way and the light from Yeshua as it is seen in the Torah. As gatherers in a field, there is many fruits of the spirit of truth that needs yet to be gathered, and as they are found, they are brought here to the forum for spiritual food for the believers. It is a wonderful gathering and I hope that all who come will find spiritual food to feast upon, be richly blessed, and grow spiritually closer to Yeshua and the Torah as a result of it.

 

[Netzari5730]

Greetings and Shalom,
visionary,
mjterry87,
I’m_Lesha,
Shamash Of Yeshua...

Thanks you all for your answers and points of views.

Zayit:"If we do not hold to Rabbinic teachings, they that would include the teaching of the greatest Rabbi, wouldn't it?"

Zayit,
forgive me, but I didn't quite understand what you were saying... lol... just lack of sleep and working too hard today, I guess... I will have to re-read it in the morning after I have slept (hopefully) 8 hours lol
Thank you for your post, also...

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730

 

[Netzari5730]

[/size]You are partially correct in saying Rabbinical Judaism hung Him up, yet you forgot to include EVERY HUMAN BEING EVERY BORN.

Shalom and Shalom,

Tag

Thank you for pointing this out. Being Jewish myself, I tend to forget semantics about what I say sometimes. What I meant by Rabbinical Judaism as being the cause for crucifying our Lord, is that He rebuked the rabbinical authority, corrected their lines of thinking, and revealed the truth to them. All of which most ~ not all ~ but most rejected.

On the other point by Shammash, YES it was the entirety of Humanity that crucified him.

In Yeshua...
Netzari5730