• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Just What is Islam?

Status
Not open for further replies.

soblessed53

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2005
15,568
810
North Central,OH.U.S.A.
✟19,686.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The United Nations Population Fund estimates that the annual worldwide total of honour killing victims may be as high as 5,000 women.
[15] Critics argue that the practice is over-whelmingly associated with certain Muslim cultures and the peoples influenced by those cultures.
Jordan: Part of article 340 of the Penal Code states that "he who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty." [27] This has twice been put forward for cancellation by the government, but was retained by the Lower House of the Parliament. [28]
Syria: Article 548 states that "He who catches his wife or one of his ascendants [sic], descendants or sister committing adultery (flagrante delicto) or illegitimate sexual acts with another and he killed or injured one or both of them benefits from an exemption of penalty."
Countries where honour killing is not legal but is frequently in practice include:
Pakistan: Honour killings are known as Karo Kari (Urdu: کاروکاری ). The practice is supposed to be prosecuted under ordinary murder, but in practice police and prosecutors often ignore it. [31] Often a man must simply claim the killing was for his honour and he will go free. Nilofer Bakhtiar, advisor to Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz, stated that in 2003, as many as 1,261 women were murdered in honour killings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"
There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings. However, the view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling_2.html
 
Upvote 0

soblessed53

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2005
15,568
810
North Central,OH.U.S.A.
✟19,686.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
As I have not read the Quran all I can say, is that it appears that is the case.

The most complementary things I have ever read about it were in the Book,I Dared To Call Him Father: The Miraculous Story of a Muslim Woman's Encounter With God -- by Bilquis Sheikh, Richard H. Schneider . She loved Islam, until Jesus came looking for her, and she fell in love with the savior who gave his life for mankind.She said that the Quran does not support these horrible acts,but terrorism and Sharia Law are all about political power,and that many,many Muslims are unable to read the Quran so they believe the corrupted version these Radical Fundamentalist Clerics and leaders feed them.

My argument with you is that you and several like you,seem to deny that there are any Radical Islamic atrocities period! That if I, or anyone posts anything about terrorism and/or oppression under Radical Islam you label it an attack on All Muslims,and never,ever have a sympathetic word to say about the people affected in the OP. Never,ever say the terrorists are in the wrong!
 
Upvote 0

Canuk

Senior Member
Sep 28, 2006
630
101
✟23,731.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Unlike Radical Islamic Terrorism,there is no place on earth experiencing terrorism from Christians! I have not seen a single post here calling for the destruction/genocide,or conversion of Muslims,so why are you even stating such a thing? :scratch:

He is stating such a thing to prove the point that you can pull very specific quotes from the Bible or the Quran (not to mention any other piece of religious literature) and make a case for violence.

If there is no place on earth that is experiencing terrorism from Christians, what happened in Oklahoma City in 1995? Was that not terrorism? What about the killing of abortion doctors? What about the KKK? What about Ruby Ridge? Rogue Militia groups in Montana and Idaho? Jerry Fallwel calling for the assassination of the president of Venezuela?

The fact of the matter is that people from all religious backgrounds do terrible things in the name of "God". I wish that we, as Christians, would be a little more willing to remove the log from our own eyes before we start pointing out the spec in someone else's. We can't sit here on our holier than thou seats of judgment and condemn an entire group of people because of extremists - if we do that, we open ourselves to be judged based strictly on the inappropriate actions of other Christians.

Furthermore, where is the love in any of your ideas? All I see is hate...the last time I checked, I John 4: 7-12 said

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
 
Upvote 0

Canuk

Senior Member
Sep 28, 2006
630
101
✟23,731.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My argument with you is that you and several like you,seem to deny that there are any Radical Islamic atrocities period! That if I, or anyone posts anything about terrorism and/or oppression under Radical Islam you label it an attack on All Muslims,and never,ever have a sympathetic word to say about the people affected in the OP. Never,ever say the terrorists are in the wrong!

The problem with your statement is that in every one of these threads Islam / Muslims are talked about...not Radical Islam, or Radical Muslims. The only thing that anyone who has been opposed to your views has tried to point out is that there are radical factions in all religions who purpotrate atrocities against those that don't believe, and that you can't paint an entire race or religion (ie. stating Muslim, or Islam) with the same brush.

In the future, if you wish to avoid these types of arguments, try to specify radical Islam, rather than simply blanketing all people who practice Islam with the term terrorist.
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
Politics major with Middle Eastern focus clocking in....

Fact is, Islam is not the devil. It is not Revelation's harlot of Babylon nor Babylon itself. And it is not the most inherently violent religion ever devised by man (that dishonor, I might posit, goes to the Canaanites...).

However, it is extremely problematic on the world scene to see the vast majority of dictatorships and contemporary religious strife taking place in and around the Islamic world.

But what is even more problematic is Christians trying to interpret the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sunna without understanding its overall framework. More than the context of individual verses, we need to understand the theological context and themes found throughout Islamic writings.

Chief among those relevant to our present conversation are the concepts of dar al-Islam and dar al-harb.

The Dar al-Islam

The dar al-Islam, or House of Submission (or Peace), is roughly analogous both to Paul's conception of political empire (Romans 13) and the kingdom of God. One of the reasons 'mosque' has never been translated 'church' is because while church can refer both to the local congregation and the worldwide community, the mosque is only the local community. The worldwide community is the 'umma,' a bloc of people that comprised not only the worshipers of Allah but also the subjects of the Caliphate. Classical Islam never developed an ecclesiology (doctrine of the church) because there was no 'church' to speak of; local mosques were intimately tied to the local government, and the Muslim community as a whole was tied intimately to the imperial government.

Classical Islam never had any concept of a church separate from the state because from the very outset Muhammad was a Arab political leader. Indeed much of the best scholarship coming out about early Islam (that is, the scholarship coming out of London University's School for Oriental and African Studies in the leadership of the late John Wansbrough and his pupils) shows that if we disregard the later writings of Muslims and focus our attention on the archaeological and non-Muslim testimonies we come to a picture of an Arabist nationalism marching out into the world and standing in contrast to Christian Byzantium and Zoroastrian Persia that makes no mention of Allah. It has demonstrated with some success that the Shi'ite, who claim that the Caliph (leader of all Muslims) must be a success to Muhammad, are more thoroughly connected to original Muslim practice and that the Qur'an is a product of later Sunni editing under the leadership of a non-descendent.

But whether one accepts the traditional Muslim account or the historical reconstruction, the fact remains that Islam began with no conception of separation between mosque, umma, and state, because all three were embodied in the dar al-Islam.

The Dar al-Harb

What about the dar al-harb? Meaning House of War, the dar al-harb is the Muslim characterization of the non-Muslim world. It is characterized as such not because it is necessarily more violent, but because it is in a state of rebellion against the laws of Allah. The solution is to bring the House of War into the House of Submission (dar al-Islam)- a submission to the laws of Allah that bring peace.

There are two implications to the two-house model

First Implication of the Two Houses: Internal

The first implication to the two-house model is that the Muslim emphasis has never been on individual conversion (although this is preferable). It is not so important that individuals within a society believe (this is a culturally insensitive Christian interpolation) but rather that the society as a whole follows the laws of Allah.

This is especially visible in the institution of dhimmitude.

A dhimmi is a 'protected person' under Islamic law. Muhammad, indeed, laid down the laws of dhimmitude in order to protect non-Muslims living under his rule (and the rule of his successors). And who were these protected persons? 'People of the Book,' as the Qur'an calls them- Christians and Jews.

According to the Qur'an, the Torah of Musa (Moses), Psalms of Da'ud (David), and Gospels of Isa (Jesus) are three divine revelations given by these three prophets of Islam. Unfortunately for Muslims (though fortunately for Muhammad as an innovator), the current Torah, Psalms, and Gospels are quite corrupted versions of the original documents. However, since Jews and Christians worship by these documents they are considered 'People of the Book' and therefore protected under Islamic law.

Much as the ancient Israelites dealt with Gentiles living in their land, Islamic law stipulates that in order for the Peoples of the Book to be dhimmi (a protected person), they must abide by the outward, ceremonial law. They are not required to believe in Allah, but they are required to follow his laws. This is why, even today, female American soldiers in Islamic theonomies (states that are governed by religious law) are required to wear headscarves and face coverings.

Yet what do these laws require? A nigh-full curb of religious freedom. Jews and Christians are not allowed to proselytize, build new houses of worship, or repair old houses of worship. They must wear public identification of their religion (in the case of Jews, a yellow star of David... and you thought the Nazis made that one up) and pay special taxes in order to maintain their protected status. Murdering a dhimmi is punishable only by a fine.

Far from protection, this is slavery. As the classic commentator Ibn Kathir wrote in his commentary on Sura 9:29, '[dhimmi must be] disgraced, humiliated, and belittled.'

This internal enforcement of Islamic law does not extend only to the Peoples of the Book. Eighteenth century Islamic thinker Ibn al-Wahhab wrote a book Kitab al-Tawheed (Book of/on Monotheism). In it he exposited the Qur'an to show that many Islamic sects improperly applied their devotion to Allah to alternate sources and even when worshiping Allah did so in an unlawful manner. These include Shiites, who revere Muhammad with high esteem and demand that the leader of the Islamic world (Caliph) be his descendent, and the Sufi, who revere Islamic saints and promote mystical encounters with Allah.

If you haven't read Kitab al-Tawheed I highly recommend you do (read the Qur'an first, of course), because it shows how Wahhab, the founder of modern Islamic fundamentalism, is a far better and more honest Qur'anic scholar than the liberals within Islam trying desperately to make their religion acceptable to the post-Enlightenment word.

Suffice it to say, Wahhab formed an alliance with Ibn al-Saud, the founder of the Saudi monarchy. It gave Wahhab state sponsorship and Saud theological legitimacy. Today the Wahhabist Saudi monarchy controls the two most sacred shines of Islam-Mecca and Medina-and funds Islamic schools imbued with Wahhabist thought across the Muslim world.

Second Implication of the Two Houses: External

The second implication of the two-houses model is that because the spread of the Islamic religion is thought of mostly in legal terms and is vested in a state apparatus, wars of conquest in the name of religion are perfectly permissible.

Clearly there are multiple interpretations of jihad. Usually cited by those seeks reproachment and dialogue with Islam, the term can indeed be translated 'struggle.' In this first interpretation, it refers to the internal struggle to keep the laws of Allah. And there is not doubt that many, if not a majority, of the Qur'anic uses of the Arabic word jihad are to be interpreted in this sense of internal struggle for piety.

However, the term as often used in the sense of an outward struggle. It is perfectly acceptable in Islam to go to war with subjects of the dar al-harb because Allah has given the Muslim people political authority to forcibly counter the injustice of a humanity in rebellion against him. If one actually, and honestly, reads both secular and Muslim accounts of the first centuries of Islam, one will witness the fast, forceful, outward growth of the dar al-Islam by the sword- a growth by the sword that continues back to the post-Hajj/Meccan conquest life of the prophet Muhammad himself.

Many of my conservative brethren here have attempted to show that 'kill the infidel wherever you find him' is a Qur'anic quote that supports the killing of Jews and Christians. It is not. The term infidel is not synonymous with dhimmi (protected Person of the Book). It does apply, however, those within or at the borders of dar al-Islam who are neither Muslims nor People of the Book- Hinduism, Buddhists, atheists, etc. While dhimmis are monotheists who, given the above (horrendous) stipulations, may live within Islamic lands, these others are so far afield that having them within the dar al-Islam is an offense to Allah and his laws.

(In all fairness, Muslim regents over India during the Mughal period did not kill all the Hindus; they only justified this by innovation, however, in claiming that the Hindus were 'really' monotheists who just didn't know it; the resulting strain of monism in modern Hinduism is a result.)

Despite the annihilation of the Ottoman Caliphate by the allied powers and Kemal Ataturk at the end of World War I, this mentality has only strengthened in the twentieth century.

In the 1930s a Muslim scholar, paid by the Egyptian government, went on a sabbatical in the United States. When he returned he devoted himself to fervently following the laws of Allah and search the Qur'an for what to do with law-breakers in and out of Muslim lands. His name was Sayyid Qutb; the book he was was called Milestones. As with Kitab al-Tawheed, I highly recommend it.

Although his theories had never been so well articulated, Qutb's ideas had been strains running through Islamic thought since the Qur'anic period. His focus was on a concept called jahiliyyah.

Jahiliyyah is a word used in the Qur'an to refer to the 'period of darkness' that lorded over the Arab people during the time before the revelations by the angel Jabril (our Gabriel) to Muhammad. It connoted a time of polytheistic and materialist ignorance that was to be destroyed by force. And so Muhammad did; after being run out of Mecca (and fleeing to Medina in the Hajj) by the polytheist and materialist authorities, Muhammad returned at the head of Medinan armies to conquer Mecca by force- the first of many conquests that characterized the remainder of his life.

We, friends, are the people of jahiliyyah. Although Muhammad ended the period of jahiliyyah in Arabia, the rest of the world remains in darkness. This is the classic Islamic mindset.

Islam and its House Through the Centuries

I will not claim that Wahhab and Qutb are representative of Qur'anic Islam. However, I maintain that they are a far closer representation of the Qur’an’s meaning and Muhammad's political aspirations than those liberal factions within contemporary Islam that seek to debase their religion from its Qur'anic and historic roots. While Wahhabism and Qutbism are later elaborations on earlier threads, dhimmitude, jihad, and the two-house model are Qur'anic in thought and extremely origin in practice. We simply do not have record of early Islam that did not practice dhimmitude and jihad nor believe in the two-house model.

I will also be the first to admit that while I view the Qur'anic and Islamic system of thought as the most oppressive and violent among today's religions, I will also readily admit that this has not always been the case. During the Middle Ages dhimmitude did live up it its name. Jews were far safer as dhimmis than as subjects of the Spanish Habsburgs; hence why they fled to Muslim lands during the reconquista. Likewise Islamic legal policy toward women was far more progressive than its Christian and Hindu counterparts; view people realize that Muhammad instituted the veil as a means to protect women from rapists and lechers.

However, where Christianity has changed to adapt to post-Enlightenment codes of ethics and conceptions of universal human dignity, however imperfectly, and returned to the egalitarianism of Paul and the contra-imperial separation of church and state of the early church, Islam has utterly failed. I say this not to say that Christianity has done it better, but to say to Muslims that if we, the sad and repressive people of Medieval Europe can do it, you can too.

As I have attempted to show, dhimmitude was an institution of protection but only at the cost of slavery; the same can be said of women in Islamic lands. Muhammad instituted the veil and face-coverings to protect women from lecherous men; yet this assumes that women require such protection from the government. And so, women who see no need for such state protection and attempt to remove the veil are stoned in stadiums.

This problem is indicative of Islam in history. Where Islam was once the most progressive religion on the planet and the Caliphate the most powerful empire in the world, the Islamic world has been surpassed first by Enlightenment Europe and now by East Asia (in supreme humiliation, as they are not even People of the Book). An inability to adapt beyond their now-relatively brutal polity and jurisprudence has transformed a once-noble religious system into a bastion of tyranny and violence.

Might I suggest two books on the topic by the foremost authority on Middle Eastern studies, Bernard Lewis:
The Crisis of Islam: Holy War and Unholy Terror
What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East
 
Upvote 0

Voegelin

Reactionary
Aug 18, 2003
20,145
1,430
Connecticut
✟26,726.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Its sad to see arguments as the OP is using.

Hundreds of years ago I could have made the same statement about Christianity. The Inquisition, the Crusades, the persecution of non Christians... and it is the same within Islam now (which btw is 600 years newer than Christianity so it hasn't had as much time to liberalize).

The Inquisition was a result of the Church in Spain having no desire to fool aound after centuries of Muslim occupation of the country. But the Spanish Crown was less eager to play footsie with subversives. People asked to be tried by the church rather than the state.

The Crusades were defensive. Muslims had looted Rome and sacked the tombs of St. Peter and St. Paul over 100 years before the first crusade. Christians were being persecuted in the Holy Land.

Your "give them time" argument fails as Islam rejected reason in the 9th century when holding Mu'tazlite doctrine was made a death penatly offense by Caliph Ja'afar al-Mutawakkil. Islam had it's enlightenment. It rejected it a thousand years ago and hasn't looked back since.
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
The Crusades were defensive. Muslims had looted Rome and sacked the tombs of St. Peter and St. Paul over 100 years before the first crusade. Christians were being persecuted in the Holy Land.

Indeed, Pope Urban II's call to arms speech is based on the idea that the Byzantines were besieged by attackers.

Your "give them time" argument fails as Islam rejected reason in the 9th century when holding Mu'tazlite doctrine was made a death penatly offense by Caliph Ja'afar al-Mutawakkil. Islam had it's enlightenment. It rejected it a thousand years ago and hasn't looked back since.

Well, six hundred years, but whose counting.

At least, if you're talking about the philosophers Averroes and Avicena, who were the last major 'humanists' in the orthodox Muslim tradition.
 
Upvote 0

CrimsonTideChristian

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2006
606
3
Alabama
✟23,244.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Man, It just kills me that these people could be so power hungry. What's worse, is that these radicals will have do something totally awful before the world sees what it is up against. And also, some of you were implying that they do these things not for islam, but because of their lust for political power. Why then, before doing a useless suicide mission do they yell Allah is great......
 
Upvote 0

WesternCanuck

Regular Member
Dec 9, 2006
113
17
61
Alberta
✟23,148.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Good posts here and I do think one thing the Body of Christ must be careful and I am speaking to myself here also is not to get so focused on Islam as the only evil out there.....I tend to think the greater evil has been radical secularism in the West which has left many parts of Europe dead spiritually for Christ......Islam is more of an outside threat though in parts of Europe that is changing...but radical secularism has been a danger rotting us from the inside....

And I agree with the above poster that Canaanites were the worse but they were a small religion and that was a long time ago...but they were evil to be sure....Perhaps the Assyrians were worse but that is debateble....
 
Upvote 0

WesternCanuck

Regular Member
Dec 9, 2006
113
17
61
Alberta
✟23,148.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Btw, GratisCorpusChristi, your knowledge is wonderful and I really appreciate your spirit.....contrast that with me who is always so rude.....ha ha ha.....but like every other regenerate believer in Christ, I am under construction!:wave:
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.