Just got home...

[Tigermoose]

I have to stop you right there....

I had written something in reply, but then it came to me that the following would be more than a sufficient reply to what is going on here:


"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Seriously? You (or they) can argue that homosexuality is not a sin after reading that? Truly, they must be given over to a depraved mind and are suppressing the truth by their wickedness if they can avoid reading the plain truth that homosexuality is a sin and shameful.

 

[BryanW92]

I have to stop you right there. For it is here where you find the majority of people who are for same sex marriage and the inclusive ordination of LGBTQ individuals disagreeing with your opening premise. They would say it is not clear that the Bible includes it as sin. They would then put the burden on those who say it is to show where it so "clearly" is recorded, and then they would produce a myriad points by which what you see as clairty are obfiscated. In the end, they might even argue that once dismissing all your now unclear points, what is left that is clear is a Biblical command to love one another. Give that this command *IS* clear while others are not, our first response is to practice love not hate toward one another.

Now, Tigermoose, you may not agree with that way of processing things, you have expressed that you see it as absurb and I'm not here to convince you otherwise. But, we do have to recognize that those who are wearing Rainbow stoles, ribbons, and lapel pins do NOT agree with your opening premise. If they did, I doubt that they would be arguing for what they do.

"Love one another" is not the same thing as "Ordain one another". I don't know anyone in the UMC (although I'm sure there are some) who advocates kicking gays out of church. We have to separate the real issue from the liberal strawman argument. It's like the "Hobby Lobby wants to ban contraceptives" line that the liberals are spouting. Repeating a lie and seeing it in print doesn't make it true.

If the liberals are correct that homosexual sex is not a sin (because we are supposed to believe that Romans 1:28 is about temple prostitution), but that even having a lustful thought is, then Christianity is a very confused and unnatural religion.

So, we tell ourselves that we can be washed clean for having gay sex or lustful thoughts, right? Are we once saved, always saved? Or are we going to be like Roman Catholics and sin all week and confess on Saturday?

Well, then I guess we can wash away heterosexual fornication and adultery as well. After all, all sins are equal, right? Now, we've turned Christ into Bacchus.

 

[Tigermoose]

"Love one another" is not the same thing as "Ordain one another". I don't know anyone in the UMC (although I'm sure there are some) who advocates kicking gays out of church. We have to separate the real issue from the liberal strawman argument. It's like the "Hobby Lobby wants to ban contraceptives" line that the liberals are spouting. Repeating a lie and seeing it in print doesn't make it true.

If the liberals are correct that homosexual sex is not a sin (because we are supposed to believe that Romans 1:28 is about temple prostitution), but that even having a lustful thought is, then Christianity is a very confused and unnatural religion.

So, we tell ourselves that we can be washed clean for having gay sex or lustful thoughts, right? Are we once saved, always saved? Or are we going to be like Roman Catholics and sin all week and confess on Saturday?

Well, then I guess we can wash away heterosexual fornication and adultery as well. After all, all sins are equal, right? Now, we've turned Christ into Bacchus.

Even more than that, Paul excluded those in the Church who repentantly persist in their sins. We are not to judge the sinners outside the Church, but we are to judge and exclude those in the Church who unrepentantly persist in their sin.


"9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”"

 

[Joykins]

Even more than that, Paul excluded those in the Church who repentantly persist in their sins. We are not to judge the sinners outside the Church, but we are to judge and exclude those in the Church who unrepentantly persist in their sin.


"9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”"

As you see, the proposals to kick gay people out of church is far from a non-issue, as it was an immediate response.

 

[Tigermoose]

As you see, the proposals to kick gay people out of church is far from a non-issue, as it was an immediate response.

Don't blame me. Blame God. Sin is serious business. If you will not repent of your sin, you cannot remain in the Church.

"43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell,[a] to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’"

 

[GraceSeeker]

Seriously? You (or they) can argue that homosexuality is not a sin after reading that?

No, I personally don't. But, yes, "they" do.

Truly, they must be given over to a depraved mind and are suppressing the truth by their wickedness if they can avoid reading the plain truth that homosexuality is a sin and shameful.

You're each entitled to your opinion. I'm just saying that theirs is that it isn't as plain as you or I perceive it to be. And they really do say that with all sincerity.

 

[GraceSeeker]

"Love one another" is not the same thing as "Ordain one another".

No, but "love one another" has to be expressed in some actual behavior, not just as an abstract thought. For many, inclusivity is how they believe it must manifest itself. Anything less than that is deemed to be an act of hatred.

And, let us admit, that even if the practice of homosexuality is a sin that the church is willing to be inclusive of every other sinful behavior among its clergy. Why exclude this one particular sin? I have my own answer to that question, but as you do it begins with agreeing that it is in fact a sin. If there is no agreement on this, it seems to me we are at an impasse.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Don't blame me. Blame God. Sin is serious business. If you will not repent of your sin, you cannot remain in the Church.

So, you are saying that not only should LGBT individuals not be ordained, but they shouldn't even be members of the local church?

 

[Tigermoose]

So, you are saying that not only should LGBT individuals not be ordained, but they shouldn't even be members of the local church?

Paul says it in 1 Corinthians 5. If someone unrepentantly identifies themselves with a sin and refuses to repent of it, then they should be expelled from the Church. Again, Paul said it in the Scriptures, which I consider the inspired word of God. You and others might not feel the same way about the Scriptures, and thus choose to disagree or ignore it, but it is what Paul instructs in 1 Corinthians 5. If they repent of their sin, then they of course are welcome and to continue to be included. If an adulterer is unrepentant, then they too are unwelcome. If an idolater is unrepentant, then they too are unwelcome. If a murderer is unrepentant, then they too are unwelcome. I guess i need to clarify that this pertains to church membership, and not church visitors. The "visitors" would be considered as outside the church and thus Paul says we should try to convince them to repent of their sin and to be saved through Jesus Christ.

 

[Tigermoose]

No, I personally don't. But, yes, "they" do.


You're each entitled to your opinion. I'm just saying that theirs is that it isn't as plain as you or I perceive it to be. And they really do say that with all sincerity.

They have suppressed the truth, just as Romans 1:18-32 describes. Sincerity has nothing to do with it. Sincerity is not the benchmark of proper moral behavior or truth. The Bible is. I have no doubt that depraved minds are sincere in their depravity, and even have an inability to see or understand that they are depraved. That is why the Bible needs to be taken exactly as it is written. It is a check on our sinful nature. Otherwise we just use it to justify our own sinful desires. Which is exactly what is going on in this issue and numerous others in today's churches.

 

[GraceSeeker]

That is why the Bible needs to be taken exactly as it is written.

That is terrible advice. The Bible is filled with hyperbole. Or, have you actually removed the parts of your body which have caused you to sin?

 

[Tigermoose]

The point of hyperbole is to make a point. In this case, sin is extremely serious and needs to be treated as such. Do you seriously think people of average reading comprehension can't understand what Jesus was saying?

I'm done here. You are being absurd -- either for the sake of argumentation, or you might really believe what you are arguing, which is a good example of why mainline churches such as UMC are in decline.

 

[GraceSeeker]

The point of hyperbole is to make a point. In this case, sin is extremely serious and needs to be treated as such. Do you seriously think people of average reading comprehension can't understand what Jesus was saying?

I'm done here. You are being absurd -- either for the sake of argumentation, or you might really believe what you are arguing, which is a good example of why mainline churches such as UMC are in decline.

You're the one who said "exactly". And you didn't answer my question: Have you actually removed the parts of your body which have caused you to sin?

Shall I not take you at your word? And if not, then, please allow me to use common sense when reading and interpreting God's Word. If you think that I am being abusd in not understanding that by exactly you didn't really mean exactly, imagine how absurd you appear to others who understand that not everything in the scriptures are meant to be taken exactly as written and yet you still insist that they are. This is why you continue to misread Paul and restrict the ministry of women in ways Paul himself never did.

 

[Tigermoose]

You're the one who said "exactly". And you didn't answer my question: Have you actually removed the parts of your body which have caused you to sin?

Shall I not take you at your word?

This is silly and childish. Enough with your games. bye.