Just a question on the matter

[EnemyPartyII]

The New Testament is written in Greek, some of it quite sophisticated, the mastery of which would have probably been beyond the means of a herdsman.

The OT is the bit where we find the law written, so, you know... fail.On account of The pentaeuch being supposedly written by... a BRONZE AGE GOAT HERDER...

Don't quit your day job to become lecturer on the Bible.

Well with inciteful, clearly reasoned logic like that, how can I not bow to your superior wisdom!

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The OT is basically just a collection of books written by/of prophets. david was a sheep herder (before he became king ofc)and a large portion of psalms is attributed to him.

for the most part, prophets were called to deliver messages from God, so not likely they spent all their time herding goats. (Unless you consider the unbeliever as a goat)

The OT are the tribal tales of semi nomadic goat herders in that they were the tribal tales of a semi-nomadic pastoral economy.

Members of that society would have specialised in other roles, metal work, soldier, prostitute, healer, etc... doesn't change the fact that they were all members of a pastoral economy, same as today, we are all members of a post industrial information economy... even though individually we may not be involved in the IT industry

 

[k2svpete]

A remarkable failure to grasp history my dear. What you have neglected to take into consideration is that Moses was raised in the house of Pharaoh, I'm tipping he received quite a good education there. Also, there were very few professional soldiers in history, they are frequently referred to as mercenaries. Your typical soldier was a peasant who fulfilled military duties as required.

Anyway, back to the OP.... yes, God does care. We are told he knows everything about us, the number of hairs on our head and cares enough to send his son to die so that we may be brought back to him to fellowship together. That is real love, hence why He is very much interested in all that everyone does.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

The OT are the tribal tales of semi nomadic goat herders in that they were the tribal tales of a semi-nomadic pastoral economy.

Members of that society would have specialised in other roles, metal work, soldier, prostitute, healer, etc... doesn't change the fact that they were all members of a pastoral economy, same as today, we are all members of a post industrial information economy... even though individually we may not be involved in the IT industry

by tribal tales, do you mean that they are works of fiction? And I'm addressing the whole goat-herder comment because it comes across as demeaning.

 

[k2svpete]

EP2,

The law was written for a purpose. That purpose was to give the people of Israel an insite into the holiness and perfection of God. No one could ever hope to keep the law, all were destined to fail in that regard. That was done to show that we can't attain righteousness through our own efforts. For this reason Christ was born and as he fulfilled the law, through his death we gain righteousness.

We now live under the grace of God, that being undeserved favour. We have been bought at a very high price. The new covenant sees us belonging to God, he bought us, therefore we ought to try and emulate his qualities and characteristics. Part of this is to be holy and that requires purity of mind and deed, as best we can achieve it.

 

[k2svpete]

It is, it also demonstrates an ignorance that sheep are kept by shepherds and it was this that Moses was doing after he fled Egypt. Naturally cattle was also kept but I'm sure that would make them 'beef barons', much more glamorous than 'goat herders'.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

by tribal tales, do you mean that they are works of fiction? And I'm addressing the whole goat-herder comment because it comes across as demeaning.

When I use goat herder in this context, it is not intended as demeaning, its a statement of fact.

There is nothing wrong with being a goat herder, nothing at all. Perfectly ancient and noble profession. However, that doesn't mean that you would necesarily go to a goat herder with questions about cosmology or advanced ethics... Which is part of the problem here... we expect the authors of the Bible to answer questions about fields and situations which they are not equiped to answer.

Even if God showed them a clear, high definition vision of, say, the moon landing... would they have words or means to describe it so we'd recognise it for what it was? Or do you think some ambiguous analogy or, worse, allegory might slip in?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

EP2,

The law was written for a purpose. That purpose was to give the people of Israel an insite into the holiness and perfection of God. No one could ever hope to keep the law, all were destined to fail in that regard. That was done to show that we can't attain righteousness through our own efforts. For this reason Christ was born and as he fulfilled the law, through his death we gain righteousness.

We now live under the grace of God, that being undeserved favour. We have been bought at a very high price. The new covenant sees us belonging to God, he bought us, therefore we ought to try and emulate his qualities and characteristics. Part of this is to be holy and that requires purity of mind and deed, as best we can achieve it.

Great!

And homosexuals in commited loving relationships are just as pure as heterosexuals in commited, loving relationships.

 

[k2svpete]

I think its been shown already that you are quite erroneous in you assertion about 'goat herder'.

The bible is written by the hand of men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. By virtue of this the communication of the plan, rules and history are done in a manner by which the basics can be understood by the uneducated and those who have the intellect are urged to study the scripture in order to gain greater understanding from the depth of teaching available.

 

[k2svpete]

No they're not. One union was given the thumbs up and the other wasn't. I think you can work out which one wasn't.

Remeber Christ forgiving people for their sins? What was the common exhortation? 'Go and sin no more.' Therefore those professing to be Christians but willfully continuing in sin are being disobedient to God, knowing that they are doing the wrong thing. That behaviour is condemned in the Bible.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

I think its been shown already that you are quite erroneous in you assertion about 'goat herder'.

The bible is written by the hand of men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. By virtue of this the communication of the plan, rules and history are done in a manner by which the basics can be understood by the uneducated and those who have the intellect are urged to study the scripture in order to gain greater understanding from the depth of teaching available.

so... the first time, first impression, literalist reading of the Bible isn't the way its intended?

Great, I'll keep working at it then.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

No they're not. One union was given the thumbs up and the other wasn't. I think you can work out which one wasn't.

Remeber Christ forgiving people for their sins? What was the common exhortation? 'Go and sin no more.' Therefore those professing to be Christians but willfully continuing in sin are being disobedient to God, knowing that they are doing the wrong thing. That behaviour is condemned in the Bible.

Why? whats impure about homosexual relationships that isn't impure about hetero ones/

(The Bible never condemns same sex relationships, BTW... its all about homosexual rape and some obscure stuff about temple prostitutes... thats that deeper understanding and scholarship you were talking about)

 

[k2svpete]

You sure about that? Try Romans 1 -
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

That's pretty clear.

 

[k2svpete]

You haven't even done that. How about you read it rather than read what you want. It's all there in Exodus ch 2.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You sure about that? Try Romans 1 -
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

That's pretty clear.

Is that condemning homosexual RELATIONSHIPS? Or, is it, in fact, as many Bible scholars agree, infact mistranslated and refering to straight men engageing in homosexual temple prostitution?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You haven't even done that. How about you read it rather than read what you want. It's all there in Exodus ch 2.

Oh, I'm pretty sure I've read it... and I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

You want to condemn me based on Mosaic law? Prepare for me grill you for wearing underpants of mixed fibre

Its all about consistency...

 

[k2svpete]

Is that condemning homosexual RELATIONSHIPS? Or, is it, in fact, as many Bible scholars agree, infact mistranslated and refering to straight men engageing in homosexual temple prostitution?

Yes it is condemning unnatural relationships and quite clearly in both that translation given and a literal translation from the Greek. There is no side-stepping the matter.

 

[k2svpete]

Oh, I'm pretty sure I've read it... and I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

You want to condemn me based on Mosaic law? Prepare for me grill you for wearing underpants of mixed fibre

Its all about consistency...

You make me laugh, really you do.

Exodus 2 refers to the history of Moses. It quite clearly shows that he was raised in Pharaoh's house and that when he fled he became a shepherd. Now that clearly disagrees with what you ahve said about 'bronze age goat herders.' Not only is your timing questionable but your assertion of occupation is wrong.

At no time have I asserted that we are subject to the law. Those of us under grace are no longer subject to the law of Moses. FIY they're not of mixed fibre either.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear EnemyPartyII
K2svpete makes a such a well put comment. One relationship was given the 'thumbs up', as in man and woman, Gen 2, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 6 & 7, Heb 13, etc, and the same-sex wasn't as in Gen 19, Lev 18 & 20, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1.
Now I know you dont somehow seem to believe all that, but you have only provided the David and Jonathan story from 1 Samual as an example, but this story would be a contradiction in context if there was same-sex sex , yet David had wives and slept with women there is no mention of him sleeping with Jonathan or any other man.

You want to condemn me based on Mosaic law? Prepare for me grill you for wearing underpants of mixed fibre

Well in Christ there is no condmenation, so no-one Christian would want to suggest anyone is condemned for any sin, but they might want to point out what God says. Nonetheless, we can see from passages like 1 Cor 6 and Romans 1 that everyone is a sinner except for the redeeming witness and blood of Christ which washes us clean. God doesnt point out sin to us to make us feel guilty so much as to make us pure clean and redeemed to live life to the full.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear K2svpete,
I have explained this to EnemyPartyII already a number of times this year and point out that we are under God's grace and fulfillment of the law and prophets through Jesus Christ.