Just a Matter of Time

[EastCoastRemnant]

Well, my personal feeling on the subject, is that had the men of the church stood there ground and rose to the challenge, then women would not have to fill those roles.

I would agree with that... Hazen Foss and William Foy were both called before Ellen was but declined the mantel.

 

[ricker]

Well, my personal feeling on the subject, is that had the men of the church stood there ground and rose to the challenge, then women would not have to fill those roles. I am not going against Biblical teaching, but at the same time we have examples within the Bible where a woman has performed the tasks that were given men to do. I always think of Deborah the Judge. I think this is more indicative of the church in this day and age. There is a desperate need for godly men to step up and take an active role in the work of the Lord at the laity level. Most of the active members of the church (at least in my church) seem to be women. They are the ones leading out in prayer meetings and Bible studies. With the exception of myself, our co-pastor (whose wife is the other co-pastor), and their son; we are in a great need for men to become active. Maybe it is a little different in my church because we have no paid pastor. We are strickly a lay planted and lay led church. We have no paid leadership within our church. I don't know. But what I do know is that God will call whomever will answer and follow to accomplish His work.

Hey, I mostly agree with you! I am all for women's ordination myself. A woman pastor baptised both my sons. God used women with authority in the Bible. I think it is disingenuous for Adventists to claim Mrs. White as an authority and prophet, and then turn around and say women shouldn't be ordained.

 

[Stryder06]

Hey, I mostly agree with you! I am all for women's ordination myself. A woman pastor baptised both my sons. God used women with authority in the Bible. I think it is disingenuous for Adventists to claim Mrs. White as an authority and prophet, and then turn around and say women shouldn't be ordained.

It's not the same thing. I for one am uncertain about this whole issue since there is no clear scripture regarding the matter. We have female Elder's at my church, and my Pastor explained to me that there are particular aspects of ministry that only a woman can offer to another woman. I thought that made sense.

In regards to women being pastors though, I guess I figure that scriptures show the man is the head of the woman. I know that's for marriage but I think the principle can be applied to the ministry as well. Again though, I'm pretty unsure of the whole issue.

That said, just scripture shows God using women as prophets, so there's nothing disingenuous about this. What we don't see, are the apostles making apostles out of other women, at least not to my knowing.

 

[ricker]

It's not the same thing.

Does the Bible say it is OK for a woman to be an authority and to teach (like Mrs. White), but not be ordained as a minister? Where exactly do you get this idea?

Edit to add: Junia, the apostle, is considered by many/most modern scholars to be a woman. (Romans 16:7)

 

[mmksparbud]

There are many times where EGW would present something that she had been shown and yet she was totally ignored. This whole thing that EGW was the leader of the church and what she said was law is bunk. Anyone who has read her writings has encountered those times when nobody listened to her. She told everybody to not be congregating in that big church, (Battle Creek) that we needed to set up a lot of smaller churches, the publishing company had begun to accept secular business and she warned them about that, well, nobody paid her any attention and guess what--they all burned down to the ground. She was never an ordained minister. I really am not sure where I personally stand on the ordination of women--there are places where there are no men pastors available and a woman has had to do it--there were several in China, but when one became available, he took over. The bible says they are to be the husband of one wife--it never says the wife of one husband so I'm more inclined to go with the whole male dominate thing. Christ is the head of the church, the pastors are, a picture of His authority. And, much as I do not like it--Eve is the one to blame! Women came under male authority at the fall--but not as a servant, still a helpmate, but men are the head of the house with Christ over Him. There were many females mentioned in the bible who were judges, and in the new testament, worked alongside the men in spreading the gospel, but there aren't any examples of women being specifically ordained to be heads of the church.

 

[Xenon]

Well, my personal feeling on the subject, is that had the men of the church stood there ground and rose to the challenge, then women would not have to fill those roles.

Question: how do we determine if the men are doing enough so that women do not have to fill their roles? To put it another way, what is the Bible signal for women to jump in and help with ministry? Where would we draw the line?

In Acts, the church had plenty of need-based challenges. If they did not need ministers so much, Paul and other workers would not have needed to travel hither and yon. Titus would not have been left in Crete to appoint elders. (Titus 1:5) Paul wouldn't have had to send Tychicus to Ephesus in the last days of his life. (2 Timothy 4:12) And Paul wouldn't have agonized over the churches every day. (2 Corinthians 11:28) Yet I do not see any female ministers in Acts.

Titus had strict instructions for appointing elders. Need didn't factor into any of them. To say that women should become ministers because there is a need for ministers doesn't hold weight. It must be done "as I have commanded you". (Titus 1:5) What is necessary is a "thus sayeth the Lord".

 

[ricker]

There are many times where EGW would present something that she had been shown and yet she was totally ignored. This whole thing that EGW was the leader of the church and what she said was law is bunk. Anyone who has read her writings has encountered those times when nobody listened to her. She told everybody to not be congregating in that big church, (Battle Creek) that we needed to set up a lot of smaller churches, the publishing company had begun to accept secular business and she warned them about that, well, nobody paid her any attention and guess what--they all burned down to the ground. She was never an ordained minister. I really am not sure where I personally stand on the ordination of women--there are places where there are no men pastors available and a woman has had to do it--there were several in China, but when one became available, he took over. The bible says they are to be the husband of one wife--it never says the wife of one husband so I'm more inclined to go with the whole male dominate thing. Christ is the head of the church, the pastors are, a picture of His authority. And, much as I do not like it--Eve is the one to blame! Women came under male authority at the fall--but not as a servant, still a helpmate, but men are the head of the house with Christ over Him. There were many females mentioned in the bible who were judges, and in the new testament, worked alongside the men in spreading the gospel, but there aren't any examples of women being specifically ordained to be heads of the church.

As far as I know the word "ordained" isn't used in the New Testament, just another tradition.


I keep hearing Ellen White didn't have authority and didn't teach, or no one listened to her, blah, blah blah, then I read in your fundamental beliefs:"a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction " .

I'm sorry, but I tend to believe the fundamental beliefs over what you say until proved otherwise.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Question: how do we determine if the men are doing enough so that women do not have to fill their roles? To put it another way, what is the Bible signal for women to jump in and help with ministry? Where would we draw the line?

In Acts, the church had plenty of need-based challenges. If they did not need ministers so much, Paul and other workers would not have needed to travel hither and yon. Titus would not have been left in Crete to appoint elders. (Titus 1:5) Paul wouldn't have had to send Tychicus to Ephesus in the last days of his life. (2 Timothy 4:12) And Paul wouldn't have agonized over the churches every day. (2 Corinthians 11:28) Yet I do not see any female ministers in Acts.

Titus had strict instructions for appointing elders. Need didn't factor into any of them. To say that women should become ministers because there is a need for ministers doesn't hold weight. It must be done "as I have commanded you". (Titus 1:5) What is necessary is a "thus sayeth the Lord".

What would your counsel be to a small church with only women attendee's? Is studying together all that is required? I know our small online group doesn't have a 'leader' as such and no sermons are preached but we take turns reading studies of scripture and reading SOP to gain our blessing.

 

[stinsonmarri]

As admittedly an outsider, I say about time!

How can you have a denomination (movement) basically founded on a women's visions and teachings and not allow them to be clergy?

I would like to correct you that the Church I grew up did not base our teachings on EGW. The investigated Judgment started with the Millerite movement but was understood by Hiram Edison. He was the first who had a vision that changed this church. Also Rachael Oakes brought in the Sabbath truth to the Adventist movement. If you want to be factual the SDA Church has actual moved away from the teachings of EGW.

She did not believe in the Trinity,
She believeed that the Son was equal to the Father,
She believed that the Holy Spirit was a separate Supreme Being,
She never disavowed the Feast Days,
She believed that the 144,000 were Adventist who were sealed and would finish the work,
She believe in the 1888 message that SDA church as a whole rejected,
She later in life urge the Church to review the studies of Daniel and Revelation,
She later advized that what we once thought of the Papacy need to be reviewed and by doing so there will be a revial.

These are some of the things she provided that the SDA Church did not follow, so you can center it around EGW. Our church followed the teachings of more than EGW by many others including Joseph Bates.

Happy Sabbath
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Women have certain roles to play within the church, prophet among them, but clergy isn't. It's no different than the role mean and women were made to play in the family unit... we can see the results of bucking that trend and were it's gotten our society.
We may not always understand or even agree with the way God wants things to be but we should definitely heed it... or suffer the consequences.

I would like to remind you again that EGW was not a prophet. This is why so many are confuse about our belief. We have tried to equate her with the Bible and she is not. She had visions as other did during her time that related to Acts 2: 16-18. She at first allow others to refer her as an prophetess even though she herself said that she was not! Later she apoligized and stated clearly that she was not called by Elohim to be a prophet but a messenger. If we would listen to what she emphatically stated we would not have the problems we face today about her work. Her was needed and it will lead us back to studying the word of Elohim. I will say you do not have to read any of her writings to understand truth. Many will not in these last days but only through the word of Elohim. It is sad we look to her but will not obey the word of Elohim and accept that Father called her a messenger. Should listen to the ministers or to the Heavenly Father?

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[ricker]

I would like to correct you that the Church I grew up did not base our teachings on EGW. The investigated Judgment started with the Millerite movement but was understood by Hiram Edison. He was the first who had a vision that changed this church. Also Rachael Oakes brought in the Sabbath truth to the Adventist movement. If you want to be factual the SDA Church has actual moved away from the teachings of EGW.

She did not believe in the Trinity,
She believeed that the Son was equal to the Father,
She believed that the Holy Spirit was a separate Supreme Being,
She never disavowed the Feast Days,
She believed that the 144,000 were Adventist who were sealed and would finish the work,
She believe in the 1888 message that SDA church as a whole rejected,
She later in life urge the Church to review the studies of Daniel and Revelation,
She later advized that what we once thought of the Papacy need to be reviewed and by doing so there will be a revial.

These are some of the things she provided that the SDA Church did not follow, so you can center it around EGW. Our church followed the teachings of more than EGW by many others including Joseph Bates.

Happy Sabbath
stinsonmarri

Please address SDA Fundamental Belief #18 in light of what you just wrote.

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

According to this FB, Mrs. White was, and is, an authoritative source of truth. Is Joseph Bates, or Uriah Smith, or James White mentioned here?

Do you think it was a good thing that sometimes early Adventists apparently didn't always follow her teachings? Were they following the Holy Spirit in rejecting EGW?

 

[mmksparbud]

No, they were not following the Holy Spirit in rejecting her instructions. They were following their own inclinations.

 

[Pythons]

Will SDA's still maintain they are the remnant Church....
...If and when the SDA Church starts ordaining female clerics?

 

[stinsonmarri]

Please address SDA Fundamental Belief #18 in light of what you just wrote.

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested.

According to this FB, Mrs. White was, and is, an authoritative source of truth. Is Joseph Bates, or Uriah Smith, or James White mentioned here?

Do you think it was a good thing that sometimes early Adventists apparently didn't always follow her teachings? Were they following the Holy Spirit in rejecting EGW?

Ricker:

Notice it said messenger and not prophetess or prophet.

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: Co 12:1, 10​

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1Co 13:2

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 1Ti 4:14

Show me an the Bible where it says that. She never said that as well she said take the Bible and I do and not some fundalmental beliefs. Nor does the Bible state a remnant church, please stop putting things into the Bible that is not there. The remnant will comprise of both the 144,000 and the great multitude and not the SDA Church! Too many bigotry like the Jews in the Church today. The wheat and the tares must be separated and only the angels of Elohim will take on that task my friend.​

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mat 15:9​

You can say what you want but, I obey the Bible and I know the history of this church. EGW did not make up the SDA Church it was the message given by Hiram Edison and he also had the first vision before EGW. This Church is based on the Investigated Judgment. EGW accepted it after reading his phamphlet and Elohim used them both as He did Paul who was not a prophet but a messenger for Him. What she and Edison both visioned was already in the Bible in the Prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. What they both did is what Paul said clearly to edify the Church which means to build it up through understanding. Their visions were given to help understand what was already in the Bible. YAHWEH told Daniel that his book would be understood in the last days. Act 2:16, 17 is how it all came about and more is understood even now!​

Blessings,

stinsonmarri​

 

[ricker]

Ricker:

Notice it said messenger and not prophetess or prophet.

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: Co 12:1, 10​

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1Co 13:2

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 1Ti 4:14

Show me an the Bible where it says that. She never said that as well she said take the Bible and I do and not some fundalmental beliefs.​

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mat 15:9​

You can say what you want but, I obey the Bible and I know the history of this church. EGW did not make up the SDA Church it was the message given by Hiram Edison and he also had the first vision before EGW. This Church is based on the Investigated Judgment. EGW accepted it after reading his phamphlet and Elohim used them both as He did Paul who was not a prophet but a messenger for Him. What she and Edison both visioned was already in the Bible in the Prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. What they both did is what Paul said clearly to edify the Church which means to build it up through understanding. Their visions were given to help understand what was already in the Bible. YAHWEH told Daniel that his book would be understood in the last days. Act 2:16, 17 is how it all came about and more is understood even now!​

Blessings,

stinsonmarri​

The Fundamental Belief says (as a women) her writings are authoritative. I really don't care much about who exactly dreamed up each distinctive SDA doctrine, Only EGW is mentioned in the FB.


Edit to add: Are you and the rest of the Adventists here saying it is OK to have a woman be an authority and teach men if they are considered a "messenger", but not allowed to have authority or teach if they are considered a "pastor". If so, where is your Biblical reasoning found?

 

[ricker]

No, they were not following the Holy Spirit in rejecting her instructions. They were following their own inclinations.

Thank you. So let's stop using that as an excuse to say Mrs. White had/has no authority in the SDA church.

 

[ricker]

Will SDA's still maintain they are the remnant Church....
...If and when the SDA Church starts ordaining female clerics?

Why not?