Just a couple of questions...

[Garyzenuf]

Three actually, they're dissimilar topics, but I didnt want to start three separate threads.

1: How would Adam know he was misbehaving if he didn't know right from wrong till after he ate from the tree of knowledge, 2: Granted, 3 1/2 billion years is a long long long time, but is it long enough for all the animals and plants to have come and gone, not to mention completely changing from one species to another, and 3: (probably directed at former christians like myself), why do I find Christianity far more interesting now, than I ever did as a christian?

 

[unkern]

1. Adam did know the difference between obedient and disobedient.

2. 3 1/2 billion years is a long time, thats why the earth was created about 6,000 years ago: Here are some resources on Youtube:
-Everything is spiritual
-Evidence that demands a verdict
-Case for a Creator

3.It may be that Christianity has very few real christians in it and now its easier to focus on the things of God rather than his claimed people.

 

[Zunalter]

Three actually, they're dissimilar topics, but I didnt want to start three separate threads.

1: How would Adam know he was misbehaving if he didn't know right from wrong till after he ate from the tree of knowledge,

Adam knew right from wrong because God told him specifically "Do not eat of the three of knowledge of Good and Evil".

2: Granted, 3 1/2 billion years is a long long long time, but is it long enough for all the animals and plants to have come and gone, not to mention completely changing from one species to another?

I would say no. Check out the Universal Probability Bound or Specified Complexity on that. Also, look up Anthony Flew, who studied DNA and abandoned his atheism when he realized that our genetic structure was far too complex to have randomly occurred.

and 3: (probably directed at former christians like myself), why do I find Christianity far more interesting now, than I ever did as a christian?

I am not sure the answer to this. I don't know what specific interest you are taking in Christianity, but I think one possible answer might be that it is easier for you to look at Christianity from the outside since you are now not subject to it's moral demands.

 

[Garyzenuf]

Do you think Adam and Eve were AWARE of what the penalty eating said fruit was (billions of human souls would suffer an eternity of torture and pain?), because if I was in Adams (shoes?), I'd put a little more thought into going againts Gods wishes, than it seems he did. It doesn't seem to make sense.

And the serpant conning Eve looks more like shooting fish in a barrel than anything else. Had anyone ever lied to Eve before? Maybe she thought what the snake said was the truth, and not a con job? Why didn't she seemed surprised when the snake started talking?

I don't know if theres any FINAL answers to questions like this, or if we're all supposed to go on a gut feeling? It just all takes so much explaining.

 

[Garyzenuf]

Zunalter, I was neither a 100% driven church member, nor an on again, off again christian. I attended regularly, studied the bible because I enjoyed it, really liked the fellowship of christian friends (still do), and can not remember a single negative experience I had as a christian.

Since Ive lost belief in the inerrancy (sp?), of the bible, I've become almost obssessed with finding out about the history of christianity. No offence, but many things I took on faith in the bible now seem utterly absurd to me. Events from the bible that seemed at least plausible when I was a christian, now seem impossible as an agnostic. (Actually I still pray to God everyday, asking for the guidance and strength to do his will, so I don't really know what label to attach to myself). Sorry for the long answer to the off the cuff question.

I think my morals may have changed too since I'm no longer a christian, but I'm not sure what you mean by moral demands. I don't see myself now as being a worse person than when I was as a christian (nor better), just much more questioning.

 

[unkern]

What happened with Eve is she felt that God was holding out on her, so the devil convinced her to try it. Then when Adam saw that nothing happened to Eve he ate it.

I understand that you feel some of the stuff in the bible is a little out there, at one time I did as well, but when you really look into it its amazing what you will find. In fact a very eye opening book for me was a case for faith.

God be with you

 

[Deba]

I'll give your 3rd question a shot if I may. Sometimes in church we make God way to small.

Take science for example. Science posses no threat to Christianity. If you think of it as simply discovering what God already knew when He made it, it becomes good to touch and handle science.

I was saved at 33. Because a gay guy told me I could talk to God. I disagreed with him, but a couple of days late I prayed in secret and lo and behold God answered me! None of the 'good Christians' who had, over the years, tried to scare me into church to save me from hell, had ever before told me that I could talk to God.

Sometimes the church leadership wants to keep everyone safe and that is easiest to do by keeping them in a small pen. But in Rev 21:7 Jesus says that He will be the overcomers God and they will be His son. The list of those to go into the lake of fire and brimstone, begins with the cowardly. So perhaps the small pen is a safe place to start (like a crib) but we should naturally grow into a full-grown man or woman of God and act as such.

 

[Garyzenuf]

What happened with Eve is she felt that God was holding out on her, so the devil convinced her to try it. Then when Adam saw that nothing happened to Eve he ate it.

I understand that you feel some of the stuff in the bible is a little out there, at one time I did as well, but when you really look into it its amazing what you will find. In fact a very eye opening book for me was a case for faith.

God be with you

Thanks for the reply Unkern,

Still....I think the wise old devil wouldn't stand a chance of talking Eve into trying the fruit if there wasn't some kind of sin already lurking inside her. Maybe greed for what she thought God was holding out on them? Adams sin seems to run into the gullible (stupidity?) catergory. If thats a sin at all.

Actually, I used to find amazing things in the bible as well, but they were more in line with some of Jesus' teachings, as well as Pauls letters of course. When I asked my pastor and christian friends about events in the bible that seemed far fetched, it was suggested I take it on faith. Which to me seemed like a good idea at the time, for hadn't I not believed in the ressurection of Christ, only later to become convinced of it.

I have been reluctent to give the christian perspective a fair sounding since my (de-convergence?), partly because I thought I had expierenced enough christianity to look back and have an accurate view of it, and partly because of fear. Not so much fear of having made the wrong decision (de-converting), but fear of not being able to discount the opinions of the christians who know much more about the bible than I do.

I said all that to say this Unkern, I think you are saying theres a book called "A Case for Faith"? If you let me know the authors name, I'll buy it, read it, and tell you what I think of it...OK?

Ciao

 

[unkern]

yeah thats the book and its by Lee Strobel. Make sure to check out those Youtube videos I showed earlier.

There are some things you have to take on faith of course, but those are the obvious questions: Like exactly when did dinosaurs die off - In the garden, during the flood.
We may be able to tell exactly when some day, but for now the carbon-14 and potassium-argon dating are so inaccurate.

There are alot of other answers you can find though, alot of which are addressed in that book.

God be with you

 

[salida]

Garyzenuf -

There wasn't any sin in Adam or Eve. What made them disobey God? Its called free will. Also, read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell(it would stand up in a court of law concerning bible). And Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest). Yes, the Case for Christ is great - in fact, anything from Lee Strobel is good because he was once a stunch athiest that tried to proof the bible as being wrong but he couldn't - so he was converted. (Below is some info I put together concerning bible). Also, one needs to ask the Holy Spirit in their life to guide them for understanding along with faith. Without the Holy Spirit one can't have the power to live a christian life - our human effort alone can't do it. And yes darwin evolution is a farce - I'm a scientist. Another good site is www.reasons.org - about science and belief.

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.



Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.


External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Garyzenuf]

Thanks for the suggested readings and opinions Salida, I'm going to go ahead and buy the Strobel book you and Enkern recommended to begin with (I'm a bit of a slow read).

However, my questioning some things about evolution doesn't mean I don't believe in it, as I certainly do. I've become skeptical of many of my beliefs in the last few months, especially those I hold strongly. I think there are many truths in evolutionary theory, as well as many truths in the bible, (as I stated earlier in this post). I just refuse to take either at face value, having been burned before by both my faith in religion and in science.

I guess you are talking about the Holy Spirit being within me during my time as a Christian. As a christian I would ask daily for the discernment of the spirit, and depending on my own spiritual clarity, recieved usually seemingly clear and sometimes inspirational guidence. So now that I'm no longer christian, I won't be able to understand the bible?