Judging others...

[freealaska]

Should Christians obey the rulings of un-elected Supreme Court Judges? Afterall isn't it true that the Bible teaches that they don't have to obey the decrees on "un-elected Kings and Governors?" Or have I misinterpreted that part of the bible that says:

Romans 13

Submission to the Authorities (New American Family Association Edition)

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God, (except for Liberal Activist Judges, they were established by the devil, ignore the previous sentence in this instance.)

Or the part that says:

Hebrews 13:17 (RNC Revised Standard Edition)

17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you (of course you can protest their decisions and harass them and call them names, and smear their reputations in the media...that'll be a non-burdensome joy to them).

Or how about:

1 Peter 2:13 (G.O.P. Version)

Submission to Rulers and Masters

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right (except if they appoint a Judicial Tyrant who makes a ruling you disagree with, then you don't have to submit. Afterall this isn't what the Founding Fathers intended and they know better than anyone...even God).

So should people who call themselves Christians submit to the authority of Judges? Or are those parts of the bible about submitting to earthly authority no longer relevant in today's modern Democratic Republic? And if these passages of the bible can be reinterpreted as being "not relevant for today" what other passages might be reinterpreted using the same reasoning?

Discuss!

 

[knightlight72]

So if the governing authority makes up rules which go against what God has sid to do, then we should follow what the governing authorities say? Or should we keep in mind what God said?

I think that God comes first, governing rulers second.

If you think governing rulers come first, then I think that may be showing that one is picking and choosing verses.

 

[Moros]

The problem is literal biblical interpretation.

 

[freealaska]

So if the governing authority makes up rules which go against what God has sid to do, then we should follow what the governing authorities say? Or should we keep in mind what God said?

Cool lets do that! Wait what did God say? Oh yeah:

Romans 13

Submission to the Authorities

1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God,


Hebrews 13:17
17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you

1 Peter 2:13

Submission to Rulers and Masters

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

I think that God comes first, governing rulers second.

If you think governing rulers come first, then I think that may be showing that one is picking and choosing verses.

Can counsel cite precedent? What scripture verse says it is okay to disobey a governing authority if you disagree with them?

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God,

Well it seems pretty clear this is a commandment not a suggestion...don't really see that we have a choice but to obey it. There don't seem to be any exceptions...

Don't just take my word for it. Even Jesus submitted to the governing rulers FIRST

1 Peter 2

18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

​

 

[freealaska]

Oh and as a side note I've decided to hand out awards at the end of all my threads (you know once they get boring and people start repeating the same arguments over and over without listening). Everyone who posts in one of my threads is eligible however only a select few posts will actually win. The Prizes/awards are: "Gold Medal", "Silver Medal", "Bronze Medal", the "Duck of the Day" commemorative statuette, the "Most likely to Concede" badge, and of course, "The Booby Prize" which consists of live Blue-footed Booby which is a loud, awkward, and rediculous bird...given to people who make loud, awkward, and rediculous comments/arguments.

New Awards to be announced and awarded whenever I feel like it.

 

[jayem]

So if the governing authority makes up rules which go against what God has sid to do, then we should follow what the governing authorities say? Or should we keep in mind what God said?

I think that God comes first, governing rulers second.

If you think governing rulers come first, then I think that may be showing that one is picking and choosing verses.

But whose God should we follow? Like it or not, we are a pluralistic and secular society. The supreme law of our land is not the Books of Leviticus, or Romans, but the Constitution. That Constitution gives the Judiciary the task of ruling on what the laws mean and how they will be applied. Of course, judges are fallible human beings, and will not always be right. But the beauty of our democratic republic is that we do have legal ways to correct bad decisions. New laws can be passed, decisions can be appealed to higher courts, and the Constitution can be amended. It is everyone's civic duty to obey the law, but work to change it if it's wrong.

Or, if you really think the country is irredeemably Godless and sinful, you can move away. But where else in the world is any better?

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Can counsel cite precedent? What scripture verse says it is okay to disobey a governing authority if you disagree with them?

Matthew 22:37-38
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment.

 

[pinqy]

I don't really think this is a Christian problem...the ideal should be for everyone: If you believe that a law is immoral, or requires you to disobey your morals/ethics, then disobey the law, but be prepared and willing to accept whatever punishment you receive.

 

[holyorders]

Oh and as a side note I've decided to hand out awards at the end of all my threads (you know once they get boring and people start repeating the same arguments over and over without listening). Everyone who posts in one of my threads is eligible however only a select few posts will actually win. The Prizes/awards are: "Gold Medal", "Silver Medal", "Bronze Medal", the "Duck of the Day" commemorative statuette, the "Most likely to Concede" badge, and of course, "The Booby Prize" which consists of live Blue-footed Booby which is a loud, awkward, and rediculous bird...given to people who make loud, awkward, and rediculous comments/arguments.

New Awards to be announced and awarded whenever I feel like it.

Ok here goes:


THAAAT AINT RIGHT, MAN. WE AINT OWE CEASER NOTHIN. Its not part of the BIBLE and YIUOU KNOW IT" Yeah, thats what I'm talikin bout".


Do I get my blue footed booby know?

 

[freealaska]

But whose God should we follow? Like it or not, we are a pluralistic and secular society. The supreme law of our land is not the Books of Leviticus, or Romans, but the Constitution.

Points for such an astute observation however for the purposes of this debate we are concerning ourselves with Christianity. What other religions and religious texts teach about submitting to secular authorities is their own business.

 

[freealaska]

Ok here goes:


THAAAT AINT RIGHT, MAN. WE AINT OWE CEASER NOTHIN. Its not part of the BIBLE and YIUOU KNOW IT" Yeah, thats what I'm talikin bout".


Do I get my blue footed booby know?

No I'm sorry you don't win the Bluefooted Booby Prize. Ordinarily such an incoherent rant would win but in keeping with the spirit of the competition prizes are given to encourage excellent thinking. Consequently the Booby prize is given to discourage irrational/lazy "thinking". Since its quite clear you deliberately attempted to win the Booby-Prize that indicates anything BUT irrational/lazy thinking on your part.

I understand your desire to win; Bluefooted Boobys (while endangered) are delicious!

But I can't afford to start rewarding insincerity

 

[knightlight72]

Cool lets do that! Wait what did God say? Oh yeah:

You're argument already assumes there is no other scripture. A little bias since you are stating the question about following governing authority, and then assuming there is only one answer.

Can counsel cite precedent? What scripture verse says it is okay to disobey a governing authority if you disagree with them?

Acts 4:18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."
You'll notice by a careful reading that the authorities had ordered Peter and John to stop speaking in the name of Jesus. And yet they continued to speak in the name of Jesus. The law of God takes precedence.

Further more, Jesus disobeyed the laws by claiming to be God. The governing authorities did not want Jesus doing so. But God came before the roman government. This message has been done for a long long time Alaska.

Well it seems pretty clear this is a commandment not a suggestion...don't really see that we have a choice but to obey it. There don't seem to be any exceptions...

I think you can no longer say that.

Don't just take my word for it. Even Jesus submitted to the governing rulers FIRST

How did the disciples die? Why were they killed? Did they turn from the teaching of God, and begin to disobey the authorities in order to repeatedly be threatened with jail, death, and torture?

 

[knightlight72]

But whose God should we follow? Like it or not, we are a pluralistic and secular society. The supreme law of our land is not the Books of Leviticus, or Romans, but the Constitution. That Constitution gives the Judiciary the task of ruling on what the laws mean and how they will be applied. Of course, judges are fallible human beings, and will not always be right. But the beauty of our democratic republic is that we do have legal ways to correct bad decisions. New laws can be passed, decisions can be appealed to higher courts, and the Constitution can be amended. It is everyone's civic duty to obey the law, but work to change it if it's wrong.

Or, if you really think the country is irredeemably Godless and sinful, you can move away. But where else in the world is any better?

Since this case is using the bible as submitting to authority, the argument is a christian stance.

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

I really have nothing to say, but if I sit here and just kinda look cute and all.. would I win some sort of prize?

 

[freealaska]

You're argument already assumes there is no other scripture. A little bias since you are stating the question about following governing authority, and then assuming there is only one answer.

I'm assuming either those verses apply to the Supreme Court/Courts in general or they don't apply to anyone at all. And if they don't apply to you and me then why are they in the bible?

Acts 4:18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."

You'll notice by a careful reading that the authorities had ordered Peter and John to stop speaking in the name of Jesus. And yet they continued to speak in the name of Jesus. The law of God takes precedence.

Interesting because as I read it the Sanhedrin had to differ to the Roman Government the same as everyone else, therefore the Sanhedrin had no governing authority (the same reason Jesus was brought before Pontius Pilate...they didn't have the authority to execute Jesus without the Governor's permission.) The Sanhedrin was given authority to regulate their own internal religious affairs but as matters of law were concerned: Rome ruled.

Further more, Jesus disobeyed the laws by claiming to be God. The governing authorities did not want Jesus doing so. But God came before the roman government. This message has been done for a long long time Alaska.

Actually Jesus didn't break the law by claiming to be God, because, well he is. Unless you wish to dispute that...and then we have a problem. Furthermore the Governing Authority in Jesus's case (Pilate) found "no basis for a charge" (luke 23:4) against Jesus.

How did the disciples die? Why were they killed? Did they turn from the teaching of God, and begin to disobey the authorities in order to repeatedly be threatened with jail, death, and torture?

Arguably this is irrelevant. They still submitted to the Governing Authorities and accepted their punishments even though they probably could have struck them deaf blind and dumb. They were of course given the right words so that they could confound the various councils they were brought before, but arguing your way out a charge isn't the same as refusing to obey a court order...and you know you're doing wrong when you do that...

 

[freealaska]

I really have nothing to say, but if I sit here and just kinda look cute and all.. would I win some sort of prize?

Freealaska: Judges?

Judges: [deliberate by high-speed telepathy] then:
Judges: We have reached a verdict.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a276/abinidab/f5f71864.gif​

"This aint no beauty contest"

​

 

[NPH]

Matthew 22:37-38
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment.

There is a noticeable lack of "it is okay to disobey a governing authority" in that verse. The scripture never makes a claim that we must love a government while obeying it, only that we must obey it. This verse simply makes it clear that we must love God more than the government, even while yet submitting to that government.

 

[NPH]

Acts 4:18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."
You'll notice by a careful reading that the authorities had ordered Peter and John to stop speaking in the name of Jesus. And yet they continued to speak in the name of Jesus. The law of God takes precedence.

As freealaska already noted, the authority in this case was not a government but rather a religious order. This becomes more clear by reading the first verse of Acts 4:

"And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them."

An even more careful reading than your own will notice that the did not contradict this authority even. Here is verse 19 from the KJV which is a bit clearer than the one you use:

"But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye."

Even though Peter and John knew what was right, they still submitted to this religious authority, made their case and awaited judgement by this authority.

The scene is played out in verse 21 which shows the decision of the Sadducees:

"So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done."

So in the end the Sadducees let Peter and John go, having decided not to punish them. Peter and John made their case in court, but remained in submission to that court throughout.

Further more, Jesus disobeyed the laws by claiming to be God. The governing authorities did not want Jesus doing so. But God came before the roman government. This message has been done for a long long time Alaska.

Jesus was a superb lawyer on top of everything else and when faced with the question of "Are you the Son of God?" put to him by the Council, it is worth noting that Jesus response was "You say that I am". He did not admit it but rather let the Council itself say it for Him. He does this again when Pilate asks Him "Are you the King of the Jews?" and He answers "You say it". Jesus knew that an admission by Himself on these counts would have had Him found guilty and so did not answer the question. Further proof of even Jesus' submittance to the authorities.

 

[freealaska]

There is a noticeable lack of "it is okay to disobey a governing authority" in that verse. The scripture never makes a claim that we must love a government while obeying it, only that we must obey it. This verse simply makes it clear that we must love God more than the government, even while yet submitting to that government.

I think this sums it up pretty well:

Matthew 23

Seven Woes

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

There is a noticeable lack of "it is okay to disobey a governing authority" in that verse. The scripture never makes a claim that we must love a government while obeying it, only that we must obey it. This verse simply makes it clear that we must love God more than the government, even while yet submitting to that government.

"There is a noticeable lack of" me saying anything about liking or loving a government in my post.
Now to return to my statement, the scripture I used DOES say that we are to love God above all and with all.
So if a situation develops where one must choose between being faithful to God OR obeying government, that scripture would apply. Would it not?