Judgement

[olds8598]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't blame it on the devil, I think it's a doctrine of the devil but we are all accountable for our choices.

I lean towards being ignorant, as most people have not been taught correct. If I believe it's sin to do A, and I see you doing A, should I not tell you? Granted the interpersonal skills may be lacking when I tell you, but that's the age of the internet. In the same way, if you see me doing A and you believe it's sin, would you not tell me? Without compassion though it is painful, but I'd suggest that most people lack compassion on things they've never gone through.

But also I've seen people who I think are idiots, and they don't compare. That's just me though.

That's cool.

I tend to be somewhat hard on myself and thus somewhat hard on others. Plus I see in this day so many people shirking responsibility. "The government made do it," "The Devil made me do," "The drugs made me do it," etc.

Thanks for the reply, Svt4Him.

 

[katautumn]

VG, thank you for your post. This particular sentence really resonated with me:

The church knew he had beaten me, and did not discipline him at all. In fact, they told me that if I feel unsafe, I am the one who needed to go and find a new church.

This happened in my first marriage. The first Sunday morning after I issued the restraining order against my [ex] husband, after the service I was walking back to the choir room to hang up my choir robe and was cornered by a handful of elderly women who shamed me for what I had done. I was told that he needed to be at church more than I did, and that if I was afraid of him maybe *I* should be the one to find a new church, because he'd been a member there longer. Finally, the pastor called me into his office one afternoon and informed me that some parents had expressed concern that if I was divorced, it wouldn't be possible for me to be fit to teach the Bible to their children. I was asked to step down from all areas of ministry I was involved in. That I was welcome to attend Sunday worship services (and tithe, of course!), but that being divorced disqualified me from serving in the church. Needless to say, I was devastated.

I was only two weeks shy of turning 20 when my divorce was final. I remember coming here to CF (under a different name) and talking about it. Looking for support. Several members informed me that I had a "Jezebel spirit" and that I was not allowed to file for divorce, because of the abuse. I said, "but you're telling me I had to stay and take abuse". Several male members said to me, "you chose to marry an abuser, and God punished you. And you'll be punished with eternal hellfire if you ever remarry". I remember being so terrified of that.

It just seemed so sad, so hopeless to me.

 

[ValleyGal]

Kat, thank you for sharing your story. I can totally relate, although I was much older than you were, and should have "known better." I was so shocked that he was not disciplined, as he was in active ministry, an employee of the church. It really is devastating. After all, this is your home church, where people are "supposed" to live out the gospel of the love of Christ. And then here on CF, to be judged the way you were is completely unacceptable. I'm so sorry you were so harshly judged for honouring the self-protection instinct that God created us with.

It breaks my heart that some of the hardest people around are those in the Body of believers. And I really don't know why....why is it that non-believers seem to often have more compassion, more humility, and more understanding/forgiveness of what it means to be fully human? Why do so many Christians have such an unrealistic expectation of perfection and so little grace for imperfection, that they will sometimes destroy those who are doing their best, whose heart is in their faith and are seeking after the Kingdom?

It breaks my heart because I think it grieves the Spirit when some of his children pass judgement on their brothers and sisters, and treat them like outcasts. I hope your experience did not jade you in your faith, and that you have managed to maintain a soft heart for those who have hurt your spirit. I hope it has made you stronger. God loves the brokenhearted....so we know that he loves us divorcees well, because our hearts have all been broken...

 

[HannahT]

The church it seems has a very hard time approaching this subject, and so they take the 'human' route and don't.

Which is easier to deal with in their world of the spiritual pixie dust? A woman or man scared out of their wits due to abuse, or the the abuser that can wail on the alter - showing the true performance of repentance just how they like it?

He/She would be a lot of work for them, and it might be seen as 'endorsement' of divorce or separation. He can go on his merry old way after doing his academy award winning performance.

Sadly, they would rather play the game of 'miracles' than deal with reality.

There is nothing easy or guaranteed when it comes to the ugly reality of abuse. There is no right or wrong answer, because most of the time in these circumstances there is no 'good' one.

Its the same thing when it comes to other sins as well. I remember years ago a pastor was speaking to some of his church members about this issue. He said that believing an abusive person will stop with no help, intervention, or work is like looking at an alcoholic who tells you today is their last day of drinking...and you believe them.

You know what mind set people are in when they RUSH to tell you they know of an alcoholic that stopped JUST LIKE THAT in an attempt to shut that conversation down. It scares the daylights out of them, and cheap grace is easier for them. I mean majority of alcoholics are NOT going to just stop one day after all. Its not an easy thing to do to just leave your addiction behind one day.

Yet, when you are spiritually lazy? Its all the rave! That's much easier than having to do the hard work of coming along side of person that is scared of their partner, and might need to truly strong support.

I think at times if things don't fit into a neat little box? Their small world that they call reality just can't handle it.

I have never been divorced, but I saw my family struggle with domestic violence when it came to my grandfather. I had no idea that it was happening until I was an adult - my parents moved us 1,000 miles away so our contact was limited.

Its a long story, but in the end? Both of my grandparents were extremely sick, and my grandfather had Alzheimer's. He needed 24/7 care, and my mother asked the church to come and help them get him to the place that was chosen. He figured it out, and refused to get out of the car. They used 'headship' as the excuse not to force the issue, and how my grandmother just needed to learn to get along. You see her welfare wasn't as important as his headship.

He had been a church leader for years, but because he was violent at church when the Alzheimer's really kicked in? They stopped picking them up for church, and also stopped the visitation to their home. You see their safety was important, but as his wife? Completely different. Duty and all that don't you know.

The church only helped us when things got worse, and my mother was asking the state to come and get him. They (the state) were hesitating, and she called the church back. Now his life was in danger, and so since they had political pull? They threatened the state that if anything happened to their 'church' member? They would pay dearly. He was removed, and he died within a week.

My grandmother was so frail at that point she didn't even understand totally that his funeral was happening. To this day? I hold both the state and the church responsibility for what happened to both of them. Their spiritual pixie dust was more important than the individuals. What was worse? This is the church my mother grew up in, and they knew the whole time he was hitting my grandmother - and my mother.

There is some pretty strong 'spiritual' denial happening there.

People that can't deal with reality? At this point I just don't listen to them, because they can't handle it. Their judgement is to make them feel better, because they can't handle the dirty world out there....so they choose NOT to deal with it too. You see it really has nothing to do with the people that need them - its their own fear that it won't end 'happily ever after' just the way they teach.

Victim blaming works for them. I mean look at other serious issues - like sexual abuse, rape, drug addiction, etc. They ask you to pray yourself through it, because they just plain can't handle it.

 

[Inkachu]

Hannah, your points are sad, but true. We're so terrified of conflict, of "offending" anyone, of (God forbid!) "turning someone off" of Christianity by daring to throw their sin in their face with righteous anger... we just stay hands-off completely! We tell the victims to pray, we tell someone ELSE to help, someone ELSE can call the cops, someone ELSE can get involved. It's tragic.

 

[mkgal1]

Hearing these things (and I think this is more the norm than exceptions)....I *really* hope that there are more changes.

This is that article that the ECC (evangelical covenant church) had on their site:

Dos and Don'ts

DO give her referral information. Help her find battered women’s services or shelters or connect with the National Domestic Violence Hotline at (800) 799-SAFE (7233) or (800) 787-3224 (TDD).

DO support and respect her choices. She may choose, initially, to return to the abuser. It is her choice.

DO encourage her to think about a safety plan.

DO protect her confidentiality.

DON’T provide information about her or her whereabouts to the abuser or to others. Do not discuss confidential matters of abuse to church elders or leadership.

DO help her with any religious concerns. We recommend the book Keeping the Faith, Guidance for Christian Women Facing Abuse, by Marie Fortune.

DO emphasize that the marriage covenant is broken by the violence from her partner. Assure her of God’s love and presence and of your commitment to walk with her through this valley.

DO help her see that her partner’s violence has broken the marriage covenant and that God does not want her to remain in a situation where her life and the lives of her children are in danger. If she decides to separate and divorce, DO support her and help her to mourn the loss to herself and to her children.

DO pray with her. Ask God to give her the strength and courage she needs.

DON’T minimize the danger to her. You can be a reality check.

DON’T tell her what to do. Give information and support.

DON’T react with disbelief, disgust, or anger at what she tells you; however, don’t react passively either. Let her know that you are concerned and that what the abuser has done to her is wrong and not deserved by her.

DON’T blame her for her perpetrator’s violence. If she is blaming herself, try to reframe: “I don’t care if you did have supper late or forgot something at the store. This is no reason for him to be violent with you. This is his problem.”

DON’T recommend couples counseling or approach her husband/partner and ask for his side of the story. These actions will endanger her.

DON’T send her home with a prayer and a directive to submit to her husband, bring him to church, or to be a better Christian wife.

DON’T encourage her to forgive him and take him back .

DO consult with colleagues in the wider community who may have more expertise and be able to assist you in your response. Remember to protect her confidentiality.

DON’T do nothing.

**************************
I think everyone in ministry ought to have this list.

 

[HannahT]

mkgal - I agree with you.

Yet, there is problem.

After the shock of what had happened in my own family - I truly felt it had to been some strange attitude in that church, area, or what have you. It really bothered me.

They harm not only the victim, but the abuser as well. They harm both. They didn't do my grandfather any favors by enabling him. It answered alot of questions I had in regards to my mother - generally how she was as a person - and they refuse to even acknowledge the damage it does to the children. That is what really kills me.

When I was cleaning out their house? My grandmother was a pack rat, and kept EVERYTHING! lol! I was up in the attic, and found a very large box of letters. They were all cards and love letters - basically apologizing for beatings. It was the classic honeymoon stage we all read about. Let me tell you looking at it up close and personal? It shook me to my core. It took me a while to let go of my anger towards him, and forgive. What really bugged me? My mother wanted to take them to her, and let her keep them as 'loving' reminders. I just kept my mouth shut.

My mother and grandmother never got any help or support in this soul crushing circumstance. My grandmother was always taught this was just the way it was, and my mother I think was to scared to face the demons to be honest. Those honeymoon letters were 'normal' to them. Can you imagine?

I got in touch with a couple of ministries that deal with this. I remember one conversation that made me realize how 'normal' this attitude is. You know how they have those faith expos - I don't know what else to call them - to let people know you exist? Its part of many groups marketing. People are afraid for the most part to even speak with them. They won't even approach the booths.

Local DV shelters have extended many times meetings to churches - of all flavors - an opportunity to see how they can work together. They wanted someone to HELP with the spiritual end of this, because they didn't feel qualified. They knew the importance, and they asked for help and would do just about anything to get it. I remember one of them sending out over 200 invitations, and they did follow up too. Only 2 churches were willing to even TALK to them.

Yes, they should ALL have that list. Sadly, they won't take it to seriously. Its scares them to badly. They can't handle it, and I have no idea on how to wake them up either.

It truly breaks my heart.

 

[dayhiker]

HannahT ... thanks for sharing your story. When I was in my 20's I thought the church had the most wisdom in the world. After all we had the God who created the world teaching us. Its stories, and there are so many of them, like this that undermined my view. Its stories like this that give atheists the view that the church is made up of weak people. Its stories like this that tell me the church is only working for a small segment of our society. This is clearly seen in the small percent of people going to church these days. At least here in New England.

Thanks again for sharing. I wish I had more answers.

 

[HannahT]

HannahT ... thanks for sharing your story. When I was in my 20's I thought the church had the most wisdom in the world. After all we had the God who created the world teaching us. Its stories, and there are so many of them, like this that undermined my view. Its stories like this that give atheists the view that the church is made up of weak people. Its stories like this that tell me the church is only working for a small segment of our society. This is clearly seen in the small percent of people going to church these days. At least here in New England.

Thanks again for sharing. I wish I had more answers.

Dayhiker - I know the feeling. I was always told that if I was ever in real trouble? That my church family - along with my immediate one - would be there to support and rally with me.

What happened to my mother's family made me doubt that, but I do have people in my life inside and outside the church that would. They don't get into this 'image' thing as much as others do, and realize Christians are just as bad when it comes to life as anyone else on this planet. Its how we deal with that should be different due to Christ, and yet today they feel that hiding that sin will somehow help the 'image' of Christ. lol as if he needs our help there! He is there to help us, and he doesn't need a fake barrier to help reach others.

I think at times they wish to stay separate - and take that part of scripture to the extreme - so they can at least have some control among themselves. Its like a morale thing or something. Sadly, it encourages this 'us against them' attitude, and they miss the point of what scripture is telling us.

My parents were really big on giving back to the community, and so we are not just involved with church ministries - although there was those also. We got our fingers dirty in both secular and church activities, and when my father died? I finally realize what a HUGE impact they had when over 300+ people show up to give their last respects. We were not expecting it at all.

My folks had a pretty open mind when it came to the world, and they didn't have this 'fear' you see to often of the outside world. For example, when my father was dying he reached out for help dealing with his anxiety. He needed someone to reach out to him as a person that he could connect with, and he wasn't worried about the person being a 'christian' counselor or not. He wanted one that could help him where he was, and would respect whom he was as a Christian. Dad didn't have that 'fear' that if it wasn't a 'Christian' counselor he could be exposing himself to some boogeyman or something. lol! He trusted his discernment, and I honestly don't know if the person was a Christian or not. Dad did have a high view of them though. Knowing him? That was enough for us.

Its strange because I always thought Church people would approach the world like my parents did. They didn't give a hoot if people didn't dress 'just so' for services, or if a woman had a tight shirt, or a homeless man that stints walked in. They were always glad to see them, and had no issues greeting them right where they were. They told my brother and I that this is what Christ would do.

Its strange because my folks were very careful with where we went to church, and I always thought 'church' members just approached things as they did. Talk about a reality slap! Yes, we had some 'lofty' ones. My folks never gave them anymore importance than anyone else .... so we really didn't think to either.

Today, it seems many circles remind me of the political atmosphere. They are all gunned up and ready to attack. If they aren't attacking the world? They are attacking other Christians over their belief system. Most of it is just plain petty. Everything is seen as a hill to die on. Its nutty and not attractive at all.

Its the smaller groups of Christians who aren't afraid of those that aren't that seem to be rocking the world, and loving Jesus. You can see the light in their eyes and actions and they don't bother with the in fighting over doctrine - or the today's most popular 'sin' to attack. I think they are the ones that will save the church, and it may not look like it has. I honestly feel sorry for those that can't let go of the fear, and I enjoy watching those that have...people will notice in time. We humans have a tendency to figure that out!

Jesus loves us all - married, single, divorced, separated - even the popular group to hate today...homosexuals. Its his love that transforms our lifes, and not these silly groups of legalistics that feel the need to remind everyone what the proper 'rules' are. That is what makes him attractive - and others...lol not so much!

 

[Inkachu]

I agree that it seems to be the smaller, grass-roots, community church groups that are doing the actual evangelizing, discipling, and serving. It seems like sometimes, once a church gets big enough, or popular enough, or rich enough, it gets too big for its own britches, as the saying goes. It's like it takes a regular "shaking up" to keep a church alive and vibrant, otherwise they regress into being comfortable and just start sitting on their hams, relying on tradition, "the way it's always been done", etc.

 

[russianorth]

I have learned that there are alot of people that can not agree to disagree and they will create quite intense conflict. I have seen this at several churches and its why I no longer attend any church.