Judgement

[TheDarkOverlord]

You say that out of the creator proceeded all things, correct?

Jesus said, Out of excess of heart do men bring out wicked things.

According to theology, God created the devil, having foreknowledge of all things.
(Out of excess of heart did God bring out wicked things).

If the creator cannot be held accountable to his words then neither should we.

You can say in Gods' defense that Judgement is reserved to God. Then out of his image of perfection, to strive for this image, judgement is also reserved to you and me.

His Glory has clouded his judgement.

 

[oldskooler]

well, if we were created by a creator then we are pretty much subjrect to whatever said creator has done.
my goal is to somehow make sense of it all, myself.

 

[PureLove]

I didn't say anything lol
What is you are looking for in general?

love
Livey

 

[Blackguard_]

Isn't it amazing how many ways they can phrase the Problem of Evil/Suffering?

Besides, its a bad analogy, creating something that turns evil is not the same as doing evil. You seem to know this, which is why you through in that "with foreknowledge" bit.

 

[Emmy]

Dear TheDarkOverlord. God did not create Evil, Satan is the personification of all Evil. God is Love, and Love cannot create Evil. God ordered the Universe out of the Chaos, and God made Man in His image. Man is, like God, capable of selfless Love and forgiveness, and God wants us to be as we were created, His loving children, strong and loyal enough, to resist ANY temptation, Satan or the World uses. God`s Plan for us is eternal Salvation, and Jesus is our Saviour, He died that we might live. The Bible, God`s Word to Man, explains it more thorough, DarkOverlord. I say this humbly and with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[The Nihilist]

Besides, its a bad analogy, creating something that turns evil is not the same as doing evil. You seem to know this, which is why you through in that "with foreknowledge" bit.

Is one who knowingly creates a thing that will do evil responsible for that evil? I kind of think so.

 

[quatona]

Besides, its a bad analogy, creating something that turns evil is not the same as doing evil. You seem to know this, which is why you through in that "with foreknowledge" bit.

Yes, it´s not the same, it´s much worse.

 

[Stinker]

Is one who knowingly creates a thing that will do evil responsible for that evil? I kind of think so.

Someone said (in another post at this forum) that our dealings with God resembles a game. I think that may be a very truthful statement. To us, we feel we are pawns on some kind of a metaphysical chess board. We can blame every metaphysical character we know of for our being either extinquished or granted eternal bliss when we are resurrected.

We feel that we can dismiss the entire meta physical realm because, after all, God created our carnality (which is hard enough for us to control) and God created a super tempter who inflames our carnality to the point of sin. Therefore, we are innocent of all charges against us. We are victims. To our thinking.

 

[Blackguard_]

You two are being too Consequentialist. God is not responsible for Satan's own choice eot do evil. Even if you want to go the Consequentialist route, creating satan could be part of some plan for the good that outwieghs the bad, making creating an evil being,even without the evil being it's own choice, A-OK in a Consequentialist system.

Or were you just rephrasing the "God is supposed to stop evil as far as he is able" part of the Problem of Evil?

 

[quatona]

You two are being too Consequentialist. God is not responsible for Satan's own choice eot do evil.

If you want to think in terms of responsibility, god is either responsible for the outcome of a world that he has created (and then given out of hand by giving his creatures freedom), or he isn´t. But this would go both ways and must be true for the good as well as the bad.
If the bad happening is necessary for the good to win in the end, according to god´s plan, the bad is necessary part of god´s plan, and therefore he is responsible for it.

Even if you want to go the Consequentialist route, creating satan could be part of some plan for the good that outwieghs the bad, making creating an evil being,even without the evil being it's own choice, A-OK in a Consequentialist system.

For that to be a compelling argument, we would have to assume that god was unable to produce the good outcome right away.

On another note, the idea that the good will outweigh the bad in the big picture is a completely unsubstantiated assumption. One of those things you take on faith - which is your prerogative, but doesn´t make an argument.

You are argueing in two different ways that are incompatible, btw.
1. God is not responsible, because he didn´t want the bad to happen.
2. The bad is necessary part of god´s plan that will result in something good in the end.

Or were you just rephrasing the "God is supposed to stop evil as far as he is able" part of the Problem of Evil?

No, not me at least. I´m not talking about crisis management. I´m talking about playing with fire when knowing perfectly that it will result in burning down the house.

 

[NavyGuy7]

Dear TheDarkOverlord. God did not create Evil, Satan is the personification of all Evil. God is Love, and Love cannot create Evil. God ordered the Universe out of the Chaos, and God made Man in His image. Man is, like God, capable of selfless Love and forgiveness, and God wants us to be as we were created, His loving children, strong and loyal enough, to resist ANY temptation, Satan or the World uses. God`s Plan for us is eternal Salvation, and Jesus is our Saviour, He died that we might live. The Bible, God`s Word to Man, explains it more thorough, DarkOverlord. I say this humbly and with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

Please stop posting that God did not create Satan. It leads me to believe you are saying things based on a twisted version of truth. For everyone who does not know what I'm talking about, please see the post in reference to another emmy has made, in the "Serious question" thread. Both I and WiccanChild agree that God created Satan, if God is the Creator of all things as he claims. (for once, we agree, lol.) Please accept this fact, however painful it may be for you, Emmy. By saying these things, one could say you are guilty of teaching a "false doctrine".

 

[NavyGuy7]

One must remember that God created him anyway, and that Satan was given free will, as all of us have been. Unfortunately, we are not perfect, as Satan was not perfect. We chose to disobey, as Satan chose to rebel. It was his choice, even if God knew he would make that choice. And since God is Love, he created him anyway, to let him make that choice. By not doing so, by not offering free will, then God would have not been acting out of Love.

 

[Philothei]

http://brindedcow.umd.edu/236/evil.html

IMO the problem of evil is ... personal it has to do with everyone's personal experience with the issue of pain and suffering. But it is also theoretical since in the EO tradition pain and suffering is seen upon as something that our own Savior endured... but he conquered all pain, suffering and evil.

The key word is still free will. The fallen angel from paradise satan himself "wanted" to be evil. Adam and Eve chose to disobay God. it is our own choice to use gas and polute the enviornment while we know it is not good. We live in a creation that is "fallen" since man brought in this world evil. Everything God created was good for He knows no evil. He loved creation and He made man steward of this creation... Read the article.

God bless,
Philothei

 

[elman]

Is one who knowingly creates a thing that will do evil responsible for that evil? I kind of think so.

Are you responsible for the evil your children do? Did you know when you were having them they would do some evil things?

 

[HouseApe]

Are you responsible for the evil your children do? Did you know when you were having them they would do some evil things?

If I know before my son was born that he would murder someone, then I am as responsible for the murder as my son.

 

[Philothei]

But if you knew what he was going to choose and also knew that things could change if he did not, because there was a chance due to his free will, what would you do? I know it sounds insane but do not forget we are limitted also in understanding of God. We cannot concieve reality the way that God does. That is the reason we leave these matters to God alone.... As our superior being who is all-wise and all-knowing we cannot see even a glimpse of his mystery. Take a look at the article above.

God bless,
philothei

 

[Philothei]

Secondly even murderers have second chances... there is still forgiveness. In God's plan that killer could repent (he has this possibility since he has free will) and also others could see him repenting and follow his example. Nothing is lost since salvation is a synergy between God and man. God sends down his grace and mercy and we partake of his mercy by doing good and rejecting evil.

Philothei

 

[us38]

Are you responsible for the evil your children do? Did you know when you were having them they would do some evil things?

Are you suggesting that god isn't omniscient?

 

[quatona]

Secondly even murderers have second chances...

Actually, my main reason not to produce a child in full knowledge that it becomes a murderer would be that the victims would have no second chance.

 

[Philothei]

Actually, my main reason not to produce a child in full knowledge that it becomes a murderer would be that the victims would have no second chance.

Then again you are :1. presupose God's purpose for the birth of your child which only God knows truly the reason
2. assumption that this life is the purpose of life, when in the theistic view God has a "skopos" purpose and it is not in this world. It is other wordly. I am not going to bother with Bible verses or anything here, just in general the purpose of being is not "this wordly" but rather "other wordly" the one God knows better and we do not, we only get a glimpse of it through the incarnation of His Son and His church. All kind of religious revelation has that "outwordly" flavor to it, transedance if you wish.

3 From a pure philosophical perspective then according to this logic no person whould ever have children....because of the evil existing in this world. I used to think like that too.

But again would God ever liked to create little good robots and no sin or evil? Depriving man from his free will? That much we know that He created on his own image and likeness... and that is with the sense of reasoning, to think and with free will. It is sad that man is prone to do evil and that much is true regardless though man has the freedom of choice and that is more precious to God than a "perfect world" why? Because God created man in His image not some lower being with no free will. That is why we say that the animal kingdom was not created equal to man they are missing the intelect (image ) and the free will ( the likeness) of God and governed by instict alone.

Hope I did not bore you. Take care everyone



God bless,
Philothei