Judge rules against ‘intelligent design’

[Donkeytron]

As a matter of fact yes. There is no such thing.

Not any more there ain't.

 

[Dracil]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/

Evolutionist must be breathing a sign of relief now that their theory will be free from criticism once again. So much for free speech and open minds.

In other news, fundamentalist Christians deny atheists the free speech rights to preach to churchgoers during their church services. "No no," they said, "we don't want to have open minds and be criticized"

 

[Bobber]

In other news, fundamentalist Christians deny atheists the free speech rights to preach to churchgoers during their church services. "No no," they said, "we don't want to have open minds and be criticized"

I don't think any Christians have a problem with evolutionists if they want to start up their own church The Church of Evolution and indoctinate and brainwash those who choose to hear....its a free country....but when they come in public schools and take away from students even the right to ask questions and to think and reason and want to call that education? Baloney! Its mind control at its best and its exhibiting the spirit of nazism! Keep out any and all information which goes against our own personal ideology...its apparent the politicians aren't going to do anything....and neither will the judges....I believe the change will come some day though and that is from the students. I think they'll rise up and refuse to take it anymore. They'll demand to right to have all information put before them and those who believe in fairness will be giving them the thumbs up every step of the way

 

[notto]

I don't think any Christians have a problem with evolutionists if they want to start up their own church The Church of Evolution and indoctinate and brainwash those who choose to hear....its a free country....but when they come in public schools and take away from students even the right to ask questions and to think and reason and want to call that education? Baloney! Its mind control at its best and its exhibiting the spirit of nazism! Keep out any and all information which goes against our own personal ideology...its apparent the politicians aren't going to do anything....and neither will the judges....I believe the change will come some day though and that is from the students. I think they'll rise up and refuse to take it anymore. They'll demand to right to have all information put before them and those who believe in fairness will be giving them the thumbs up every step of the way

The validity of science isn't determined in the high school classrooom. It is determined in labs and through research. Schools teach what is validated and accepted science, not a political/religious position that isn't supported through research, peer review, and consensus.

There is no fairness in science. All points of view are not equal. Suggesting that evolution is not criticized is a lie. It is criticized through research every day.

When students demand that non-science be taught as science, that won't be a victory, it will be a tragedy.

 

[chaoschristian]

I don't think any Christians have a problem with evolutionists if they want to start up their own church The Church of Evolution and indoctinate and brainwash those who choose to hear....its a free country....but when they come in public schools and take away from students even the right to ask questions and to think and reason and want to call that education? Baloney! Its mind control at its best and its exhibiting the spirit of nazism! Keep out any and all information which goes against our own personal ideology...its apparent the politicians aren't going to do anything....and neither will the judges....I believe the change will come some day though and that is from the students. I think they'll rise up and refuse to take it anymore. They'll demand to right to have all information put before them and those who believe in fairness will be giving them the thumbs up every step of the way

Please let me direct you toward The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which, if I recall my history correctly, was a resounding success for China.

 

[Dracil]

I don't think any Christians have a problem with evolutionists if they want to start up their own church The Church of Evolution and indoctinate and brainwash those who choose to hear....its a free country....but when they come in public schools and take away from students even the right to ask questions and to think and reason and want to call that education? Baloney! Its mind control at its best and its exhibiting the spirit of nazism! Keep out any and all information which goes against our own personal ideology...its apparent the politicians aren't going to do anything....and neither will the judges....I believe the change will come some day though and that is from the students. I think they'll rise up and refuse to take it anymore. They'll demand to right to have all information put before them and those who believe in fairness will be giving them the thumbs up every step of the way

And if Creationists want to start their own schools to teach ignorance and other hogwash to their students, they can. Oh wait, it already exists, it's called homeschooling!

 

[Bobber]

The validity of science isn't determined in the high school classrooom. It is determined in labs and through research. Schools teach what is validated and accepted science, not a political/religious position that isn't supported through research, peer review, and consensus.
There is no fairness in science. All points of view are not equal. Suggesting that evolution is not criticized is a lie. It is criticized through research every day.

But not even allowed to be questioned as true in the classrooms...not even allowed to be questoned. I wonder if in the Scopes Monkey trial that if the Mind Control Evolutionists didn't plead that it was only fair that both sides be heard?

 

[Donkeytron]

But not even allowed to be questioned as true in the classrooms...not even allowed to be questoned. I wonder if in the Scopes Monkey trial that if the Mind Control Evolutionists didn't plead that it was only fair that both sides be heard?

Can you drop the mind control nonsense already? It was stupid the first time. Students can question evolution all they want in class, in fact I wish they would ask more and better questions. How else are they going to learn? With any decent instruction, they'll soon be able to distinguish between objective science and religiously-themed quackery like ID.

The issue at hand was not a free speech question. The question was, should non-science be taught as science?

 

[chaoschristian]

And if Creationists want to start their own schools to teach ignorance and other hogwash to their students, they can. Oh wait, it already exists, it's called homeschooling!

Dude, I homeschool my kids. Watch with the generalizations.

[Minor Rant Mode On]
Homeschooling occurs for many reasons. In an ideal world I would love to see all families homeschool for at least a few years, especially the first four, but I recognize that not every family is in the position that we are in order to make this happen. We homeschool for very particular reasons, I would like to think that my classroom can be described as a healthy balance of the basics, scientific rationality, and religious studies and character development.
[Minor Rant Mode Off]

 

[Bobber]

Can you drop the mind control nonsense already? It was stupid the first time. Students can question evolution all they want in class, in fact I wish they would ask more and better questions. How else are they going to learn? With any decent instruction, they'll soon be able to distinguish between objective science and religiously-themed quackery like ID.

No offence but to suggest the evolutionists are not guilty of mind control instead of true education is really to try to scoot around the facts. Students can question evolution all they want? Oh come on. You're telling me there isn't many many teachers which if one made statements contrary to evolution the teacher wouldn't try to stop them mock them or ridicule them? And objective science? What in the world is that? Declaring this certain species or that is a transitional refusing to even allow it to be challenged? "This is the proof of evolution! These are the facts! Accept them!" I don't think the younger generation is going to put up with that forever. You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. Go Young People Go! We're on your side all the way

 

[chaoschristian]

No offence but to suggest the evolutionists are not guilty of mind control instead of true education is really to try to scoot around the facts. Students can question evolution all they want? Oh come on. You're telling me there isn't many many teachers which if one made statements contrary to evolution the teacher wouldn't try to stop them mock them or ridicule them? And objective science? What in the world is that? Declaring this certain species or that is a transitional refusing to even allow it to be challenged? "This is the proof of evolution! These are the facts! Accept them!" I don't think the younger generation is going to put up with that forever. You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. Go Young People Go! We're on your side all the way

So is it also mind control when teachers smack-down challenges to the reality of the Holocaust, or that the Earth is flat or that said Earth revolves around the sun?

There is a threshold that can be crossed when moving from accepting differences of opinion to aquiescing to the ridiculous rantings of the mis-informed. We entrust teachers, especially public school teachers, with the duty of holding the line and correcting the sophomoric beliefs of students so that those same students might have the opportunity to mature into disciplined thinkers.

 

[Donkeytron]

No offence but to suggest the evolutionists are not guilty of mind control instead of true education is really to try to scoot around the facts. Students can question evolution all they want? Oh come on. You're telling me there isn't many many teachers which if one made statements contrary to evolution the teacher wouldn't try to stop them mock them or ridicule them? And objective science? What in the world is that? Declaring this certain species or that is a transitional refusing to even allow it to be challenged? "This is the proof of evolution! These are the facts! Accept them!" I don't think the younger generation is going to put up with that forever. You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. Go Young People Go! We're on your side all the way

This is a distressing departure from reality.

 

[Bobber]

So is it also mind control when teachers smack-down challenges to the reality of the Holocaust, or that the Earth is flat or that said Earth revolves around the sun?

So you throw out the old deny the holocaust , and the earth is flat cards when discussing this subject? Make the other side look as if they're on the far off extream when all the time the Mind Control Evolutionists cannot provide all the millions upon millions of transitional fossils that should be in the earth if evolution was true? Isn't the real truth of the matter that you guys are really the ones who would exhibit the positions you mention above? Im sure the day will come when the youth of our nations will see through the MCE's delusion

 

[Bobber]

This is a distressing departure from reality.

Well Donkeytron if you're suggesting that so called educators allow freedom of statements to be made on this subject in the classroom...then yes I agree....that would be and is a distressing departure from reality...I was mocked by a teacher publically in school for holding to my beliefs and I wasn't even saying anything....He called my name out in the class and stated, "Now Bob do you actually believe this and actually believe that" with a laughter in his voice to make me look stupid? That's not Mind Control Evolutionists thugery? Well if folks don't believe so I suggest they need

 

[Donkeytron]

Well Donkeytron if you're suggesting that so called educators allow freedom of statements to be made on this subject in the classroom...then yes I agree....that would be and is a distressing departure from reality...I was mocked by a teacher publically in school for holding to my beliefs and I wasn't even saying anything....He called my name out in the class and stated, "Now Bob do you actually believe this and actually believe that" with a laughter in his voice to make me look stupid? That's not Mind Control Evolutionists thugery? Well if folks don't believe so I suggest they need

A single personal anecdote is the best you can do? A teacher wrongly, in my opinion, insulting a student? Aye.

Then again, you would be inclined to poke fun at a flat earther, wouldn't you?

 

[Donkeytron]

Mind Control Evolutionists cannot provide all the millions upon millions of transitional fossils that should be in the earth if evolution was true?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

Pwned, thanks for playing.

 

[notto]

But not even allowed to be questioned as true in the classrooms...not even allowed to be questoned. I wonder if in the Scopes Monkey trial that if the Mind Control Evolutionists didn't plead that it was only fair that both sides be heard?

We don't allow the theory of covelant bonding to be questioned either.

It is discussed as being 'true' because it isn't a position that science can investigate. It is a religious position that science is not equipt to address.

It is not science. Just ask any court that has ruled on the position or any body of science that is not influenced by the religious bias or tenants of creationism.

 

[shernren]

I think that there is a careful difference between official endorsement and personal questioning. I think if I were a teacher teaching about evolution, and a student asks me "What about all that ID stuff?" my reply would go something along the lines of:

"Well, various people have their own reasons to believe what they believe. But as for IDism most of those reasons aren't really scientific. Since this is a science class I'm only responsible to teach you anything that is scientifically supported. As I teach evolutionism I'm going to show you, as we go along, just how science supports evolution. I think that somewhere along the line some of this evidence will be shown to contradict IDism. But if you still have any questions, feel free to join me at lunch!"

Respectful rebuttal.

 

[Dracil]

Dude, I homeschool my kids. Watch with the generalizations.

Homeschooling is equivalent to doing your own medical diagnosis and representing yourself in court without a lawyer. On simple stuff, most people might do okay, but as the subject matters get more complicated, most people aren't going to be qualified to do it.

You're still free to do so, and you may be one of the rare people who do it well, but the exception does not make the rule.

If Creationists wish to do their own medical diagnoses (whether it be faith healing or whatnot) and teach whatever hogwash they want to their kids by homeschooling, go ahead. Don't push it on the rest of us. Note I did not say homeschooling itself is necessarily bad for everyone else (although I do claim it's not a good idea for most), so try not to generalize what I said to say stuff I didn't say.

 

[Mathematician]

Chaos,

Homeschooling is equivalent to doing your own medical diagnosis and representing yourself in court without a lawyer. On simple stuff, most people might do okay, but as the subject matters get more complicated, most people aren't going to be qualified to do it.

Someone with such a narrow-minded view of homeschooling should not be encouraged to homeschool. With such limited resources and such a poor attitude about the whole process, his children would certainly be better off under professional care. If only to get them away from an ego that thinks he knows what's better for our children than their loving parents do. Unfortunately, sending them to school won't accomplish that.