Judge Claims Trump Deported 2-Year-Old American Citizen with “No Meaningful Process” – Here’s What Really Happened

[rjs330]

Actually, they are. If a mother, who is in a relationship with the father or does not have sole custody, leaves the country with a child that is considered kidnapping, per the law.

No its not. It depends on the circumstances. Any parent can take a child with them out of the country. They don't need a court order to allow them to do that.

It becomes an issue if there is a court order already in place or if the parent leaves and doeant come back. The other parent can file for custody or parental visitation in the country where the other parent is living.

It's even worse since most of those arguing the parent would claim she is a criminal, so why is it okay for a criminal to kidnap her child?

Its not kidnapping if you are the child's legal parent and have not lost custody. Criminals do not automatically lose custody because they are a criminal. Someone has to file to revoke custody.

 

[rjs330]

USA shouldn't have paid for the child to go. It is a USA citizen.

Maybe not. I'm not arguing that point. I guess we could say we were being generous to pay for the child so she wouldn't be separated from her mother. But I'm with with you. We shouldn't have paid for it. Especially when the dad was still here.

If they were deporting the mother (and most people would have issues with deporting a wife and mother of citizens) especially if she has not committed any crime other than simply not having the required paperwork., they should have gone through a legal process, not simply forcing her to sign a paper, but going through the courts, to determine what happens to the child.

They did go through legal process. I dont think they needed to go through any courts to determine what happens to the child. They could have just said, you can't take her unless you and dad want to pay for her to go. Otherwise the child stays with dad.

Really it is bizzare that USA are all of a sudden deporting a wife and mother of USA citizens. Very bizzare.

I don't think its bizarre at all. She's an illegal. She should be deported.

 

[rjs330]

“I will bring my daughter with me to Honduras," is a statement of fact.

A statement of fact expressing her desire to take the child with her.

According to an attorney who is in contact with the mother, she had no choice in whether or not her child could stay in the United States and wasn't allowed to speak to her husband about the situation or make any arrangements to keep her in the country. ICE told her that her children were going with her, and she felt forced to write the note.

Well that's the story anyway.

She was going to be deported, and being hours away from her home, there was no one else around to leave her child with except ICE. Do you think she would leave her child with people who have deceived her?

Gee, she could have written a note saying, "I want to leave my child with my husband and her father."

The child is a girl.

Okay, doeant change anything.

There was no hearing. She went to a regular check-in appointment with her children, they were detained, and deported.

She got her due process by immigration law. Did she ask for a hearing?

 

[rjs330]

In most cases it is 1 year from entering the US. But, one can still file, and a judge can determine if the person needs protection.

Not for asylum. Rhere is a time limit. But the person can file for protective status so they aren't deported to their country. But they can be deported somewhere else.

 

[Valletta]

Do you have a source for this?

Are you claiming the Biden administration vetted all of the cartel and gang members and hardened criminals and decided to let them in?

 

[JosephZ]

Are you claiming the Biden administration vetted all of the cartel and gang members and hardened criminals and decided to let them in?

You said one sponsor had over one thousand individuals. Do you have a source to verify this?

 

[JosephZ]

A statement of fact expressing her desire to take the child with her.

A statement of fact can't express a person's desire.

 

[SimplyMe]

No its not. It depends on the circumstances. Any parent can take a child with them out of the country. They don't need a court order to allow them to do that.

They can but it is an issue if the other parent, that shares custody, chooses to make it an issue. Yes, they don't need a "court order" but they do technically need the other parents permission. In fact, you frequently need a signed copy of a letter from the other parent stating that you have permission to take them out of the US.

It becomes an issue if there is a court order already in place or if the parent leaves and doeant come back.

Or, if a couple is married and/or share custody of the child, as is the case here.

The other parent can file for custody or parental visitation in the country where the other parent is living.

At that point it is kidnapping, since they already had custody rights.

Its not kidnapping if you are the child's legal parent and have not lost custody. Criminals do not automatically lose custody because they are a criminal. Someone has to file to revoke custody.

It is if the other parent shares custody rights -- which in this case the father did. Sure, criminals don't automatically lose custody but it is ironic that people here are arguing the "criminal" had the right to take the child out of the country despite (allegedly) a non-criminal parent with custody not wanting the child to leave the country. At that point, because the father has custody and is being denied those custody rights (has to "reapply" for them in another country), it is kidnapping under the law -- just with the US government as an active accessory (if not the perpetrator) of the kidnapping.

 

[Belk]

Wow how things change
Under Clinton and Reno.

Elián González - Wikipedia​

On November 21, 1999, Elián's mother, her partner, and Elián fled Cuba by boat as part of a group of refugees attempting to reach the United States. The boat sank during the journey, and Elián's mother, along with most of the passengers, drowned. See more

This is a custody issue between two parents......

Is it? Odd then that the US was so quick to decide the mother didn't get to see a lawyer. Isn't that normally who you talk to in a custody dispute between parents?

 

[DaisyDay]

Wow how things change
Under Clinton and Reno.

Elián González - Wikipedia​

On November 21, 1999, Elián's mother, her partner, and Elián fled Cuba by boat as part of a group of refugees attempting to reach the United States. The boat sank during the journey, and Elián's mother, along with most of the passengers, drowned. See more

This is a custody issue between two parents......

This is a bad comparison because in the Elián González case, the orphaned Cuban child was returned to his father who wanted him. In this case, an American child was taken from her father and deported to a country she'd never been to apparently against the wishes of her parents.

 

[rjs330]

A statement of fact can't express a person's desire.

Of course it can. I am going to eat breakfast. Shows a desire to eat breakfast. I'm going to watch TV now shows a desire to watch TV.

 

[JosephZ]

Of course it can. I am going to eat breakfast. Shows a desire to eat breakfast. I'm going to watch TV now shows a desire to watch TV.

Your examples tell what you are going to do without clarifying if it's what you want to do or not. There's no way to know by those statements alone what your desire is. They need additional context to express desire.

 

[rjs330]

They can but it is an issue if the other parent, that shares custody, chooses to make it an issue. Yes, they don't need a "court order" but they do technically need the other parents permission.

The other parent has to obtain a court order. Nothing is valid until it is obtained. Just like I can file for sole custody of my child. But until there is a court order I maintain equal custody of the child until the order is signed by a judge. Thats how it works.

No they don't need the other parents permission in any way shape of form.

In fact, you frequently need a signed copy of a letter from the other parent stating that you have permission to take them out of the US.

No you don't. Parenting plans are the only things that would prevent such an act or require permissions. You are incorrect. In America until there is a court order I can take my kid anywhere I want to.

Or, if a couple is married and/or share custody of the child, as is the case here.

This is precisely why its NOT an issue. They share equal custody and either parent can go anywhere they want to with the child without permission of the other.

At that point it is kidnapping, since they already had custody rights.

Maybe if the other country sees it that way. In the US it may be considered kidnapping if you never return. But the US law has no jurisdiction in the country where the other parent is presiding. And it depends on rhe parents motive. If the parent takes the child with the express purpose of depriving the other parent of their parental rights then yes it could be considered kidnapping. But if the parent has no such intention then its not.

At that point, because the father has custody and is being denied those custody rights (has to "reapply" for them in another country), it is kidnapping under the law -- just with the US government as an active accessory (if not the perpetrator) of the kidnapping.

If the mother does not withhold the child from the father and they work it out there is no kidnapping. If it wasnt her intention to deprive him then its not kidnapping. I'd they work it out with you months here and 6 months there, there is no kidnapping.

Sorry the law is very convoluted when it co.es to parental rights. I know, I have been dealing with these types of issues for 40 years now. I know more about this stuff than I'd prefer.

If I took my child and moved to Ireland with the express purpose of depriving my wife of her parental rights I may be guilty of kidnapping. I at least would be guilty of a parental right violation. But if I contacted my spouse and said I wanted to work out a 50/50 plan then I would not be.

 

[JosephZ]

No you don't. Parenting plans are the only things that would prevent such an act or require permissions. You are incorrect. In America until there is a court order I can take my kid anywhere I want to.

You can't take your kid to Honduras without the mother's consent.

Special Requirements for Minors: Under Honduran law, children under age 21 who are traveling unaccompanied or with only one parent must have written, notarized permission to travel from the non-traveling parent(s).

 

[Yarddog]

Not for asylum. Rhere is a time limit. But the person can file for protective status so they aren't deported to their country. But they can be deported somewhere else.

The immigration law say 1 year from the time one enters the country, in most cases. That is from U.S.gov.

 

[stevil]

They did go through legal process.

No, they made stuff up as they went along, they are operating beyond the law.

I dont think they needed to go through any courts to determine what happens to the child. They could have just said, you can't take her unless you and dad want to pay for her to go. Otherwise the child stays with dad.

If they nab the mother, as she voluntarily comes along to her regular check-in with them. They then have the obligation to deal with the child. The best interest of the child is to be with her parents. If she goes to a foriegn country, does she have a passport, visa etc to be in that foriegn country? The mother had not planned on being in that country.

So, they are then obligated to work out where to put the child. Taking her away from both parents isn't a good option.
Kicking her out of her own country isn't a good option, but not only that, the choice on where she goes is upto both parents.
So they should have detained both the mother and daughter and got in contact with the father and arranged a meeting.
The family should have had a lawyer present, and ultimately a judge should have been involved.

I don't think its bizarre at all. She's an illegal. She should be deported.

I see no merits in breaking up families like this. The mother was married to a USA citizen and her daughter was a USA citizen, USA should have processed her towards becoming a USA citizen and given her probation in the meantime.
Does the Republican party represent family values?

 

[SimplyMe]

The other parent has to obtain a court order. Nothing is valid until it is obtained. Just like I can file for sole custody of my child. But until there is a court order I maintain equal custody of the child until the order is signed by a judge. Thats how it works.

Let's start making one thing clear; this topic gets difficult because there are 50 states, each with their own version of family law.

Now, as to this topic, for most states you have it backwards. For example, from a website that was made to help explain family law, "Parents who make plans to relocate with a child have to get the consent of the other parent or the approval of the family court in most states and U.S. territories. If the mother wants to move to a neighboring state or abroad and the father objects, she will have to petition the court for approval."

And notice that is even just to move to another state -- many states have laws preventing from moving so far that would impede the other parent from exercising their rights to the child. If a mother moves a hours away, that would keep the father from being able to have frequent visits with his child.

No they don't need the other parents permission in any way shape of form.

No you don't. Parenting plans are the only things that would prevent such an act or require permissions. You are incorrect. In America until there is a court order I can take my kid anywhere I want to.

This is precisely why its NOT an issue. They share equal custody and either parent can go anywhere they want to with the child without permission of the other.

It isn't that simple, as I showed above. In fact, normally -- to prevent one parent from traveling overseas with a child without the permission of the other parent -- both parents must sign the child's passport application. Which just shows another way that the US government has violated the father's rights -- as either they issued a passport without his approval (signature) or they sent the child overseas with no passport (meaning the child cannot return until the father can get a passport issued, which will require the signature of the mother.

Maybe if the other country sees it that way. In the US it may be considered kidnapping if you never return. But the US law has no jurisdiction in the country where the other parent is presiding. And it depends on rhe parents motive. If the parent takes the child with the express purpose of depriving the other parent of their parental rights then yes it could be considered kidnapping. But if the parent has no such intention then its not.

If the mother does not withhold the child from the father and they work it out there is no kidnapping. If it wasnt her intention to deprive him then its not kidnapping. I'd they work it out with you months here and 6 months there, there is no kidnapping.

Sorry the law is very convoluted when it co.es to parental rights. I know, I have been dealing with these types of issues for 40 years now. I know more about this stuff than I'd prefer.

If I took my child and moved to Ireland with the express purpose of depriving my wife of her parental rights I may be guilty of kidnapping. I at least would be guilty of a parental right violation. But if I contacted my spouse and said I wanted to work out a 50/50 plan then I would not be.

It sounds like you live in a state which does a poor job of protecting parental rights. Not to mention, some of your ideas are a bit strange. Seriously, you are going to have your child attend one school for half the year and then a school in another country the other half of the year; I have real issues seeing how that would work. Not to mention, like Honduras, you need a document with your spouse's (or other parent with custody) signature to enter Ireland.

 

[rjs330]

Now, as to this topic, for most states you have it backwards. For example, from a website that was made to help explain family law, "Parents who make plans to relocate with a child have to get the consent of the other parent or the approval of the family court in most states and U.S. territories. If the mother wants to move to a neighboring state or abroad and the father objects, she will have to petition the court for approval."

And notice that is even just to move to another state -- many states have laws preventing from moving so far that would impede the other parent from exercising their rights to the child. If a mother moves a hours away, that would keep the father from being able to have frequent visits with his child.

That's precisely what said when talking about intent to deprive. I don't need permission to take my child out of state or out of country. I do if I intend to deprive the parental rights of the other parent.

Some states my have certain laws that others don't.

It isn't that simple, as I showed above. In fact, normally -- to prevent one parent from traveling overseas with a child without the permission of the other parent -- both parents must sign the child's passport application.

True. But once that passport is given I don't need the other parents permission to use it to take the child on an overseas trip. That passport is good for a few years.

Which just shows another way that the US government has violated the father's rights -- as either they issued a passport without his approval (signature) or they sent the child overseas with no passport (meaning the child cannot return until the father can get a passport issued, which will require the signature of the mother.

Incorrect. Because the father can go get the child. I don't know about the passport issue in this case.

It sounds like you live in a state which does a poor job of protecting parental rights.

My state does a good job of protecting parental rights. Its a felony to interfere with the other parents right to parent the child. Like just picking up and moving without notice.

Seriously, you are going to have your child attend one school for half the year and then a school in another country the other half of the year;

Nope. Parents come up with a plan on the where the child lives and goes to school. Typically the father gets the short end of the stick unless mom agrees. Its called a parenting plan and parents can work out the details. But the plan isn't binding unless a judge signs.

Other countries of course could have different laws. Many Islamic states allow a father to bring the child in and mom can't do anything about it.

I don't know what Honduras requires.

 

[Belk]

That's precisely what said when talking about intent to deprive. I don't need permission to take my child out of state or out of country. I do if I intend to deprive the parental rights of the other parent.

Some states my have certain laws that others don't.

True. But once that passport is given I don't need the other parents permission to use it to take the child on an overseas trip. That passport is good for a few years.

Incorrect. Because the father can go get the child. I don't know about the passport issue in this case.

My state does a good job of protecting parental rights. Its a felony to interfere with the other parents right to parent the child. Like just picking up and moving without notice.

Nope. Parents come up with a plan on the where the child lives and goes to school. Typically the father gets the short end of the stick unless mom agrees. Its called a parenting plan and parents can work out the details. But the plan isn't binding unless a judge signs.

Other countries of course could have different laws. Many Islamic states allow a father to bring the child in and mom can't do anything about it.

I don't know what Honduras requires.

How about when the US government forcibly deports one parent but does not give the other parent any opportunity to weigh in on the decision? What about when the US government does not even give the parents the opportunity to communicate with each other prior to deporting the wife and child? You're sitting here trying to dissect the minutia of the law as if any of this is OK. I seem to recall you are a parent? How would you feel if one day the US government just shipped off your family? Would you sit their picking apart passport law or would you think it an injustice because they had shipped off your family without notice? Good grief man!

 

[rjs330]

How about when the US government forcibly deports one parent but does not give the other parent any opportunity to weigh in on the decision? What about when the US government does not even give the parents the opportunity to communicate with each other prior to deporting the wife and child? You're sitting here trying to dissect the minutia of the law as if any of this is OK. I seem to recall you are a parent? How would you feel if one day the US government just shipped off your family? Would you sit their picking apart passport law or would you think it an injustice because they had shipped off your family without notice? Good grief man!

You miss the point. I wouldn't be in that position. This couple is dealing with the consequences of breaking the laws. They accepted the risks of being illegal and and having a child between them.

When you break the law you have to deal with the consequences of doing so.

The mother CHOSE to take the child. The government did not tell the mother she was REQUIRED to take the child. She made that choice. The consequence if this is that the parents have to work this out and what they want to do. If the mother chooses to keep the child the father will need to go to court. Maybe the mother can be charged with another crime if she refuses to work with the father. But that only applies in the US.

It sucks for the dad. I get that. But he KNEW she was illegal. He took the chances by staying with one that nothing was going to happen.