Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah

[intricatic]

Hi!

In reading Jude, I think it's important not to pursue an eisogesis of one verse in negligence of the overall context of the passage. I've been seeing this quite often, and it perplexes me. Allow me to explain.

The particular passage I'm discussing is this;

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
(Jude 1)

Particularly the bolded portion. Now, if we take this to mean that Sodom and Gomorrah were only wrong in that they lusted after angels, how does this apply to the rest of the book?

At this point I'd like to point out that Jude was speaking about a specific apostate group within the Church that was encouraging deceptive doctrines and encouraging fornication between believers. At least, this is what I've gotten from the text. When we look at the above bolded passage, how does it apply to what Jude is talking about?

What I'm not looking for is a specific interpretation of verse 7 as it relates to Sodom and Gomorrah, in isolation of the rest of the chapter. I don't care about verse 7 except in how it applies to the rest of the chapter. If it helps, read the chapter and skip verse 7 for the time being. Don't even look at it. Completely ignore it's even there.

What is this chapter talking about?

 

[intricatic]

Nobody have any insight into what Jude 1 is talking about?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Nobody have any insight into what Jude 1 is talking about?

Clearly its about how all 'em homersekshuals is goin' ta hell for touching all 'em kiddies an' bein abominations

 

[intricatic]

Clearly its about how all 'em homersekshuals is goin' ta hell for touching all 'em kiddies an' bein abominations

Hey, I'm being serious here. I've probably read thirty articles on this topic in the last two days and none of them pay any attention to the surrounding context - it's as if Jude 1 consists of two verses and nothing more to most people.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Hey, I'm being serious here. I've probably read thirty articles on this topic in the last two days and none of them pay any attention to the surrounding context - it's as if Jude 1 consists of two verses and nothing more to most people.

I agree... hence the tone of my post

But then, I've just recently read a post from someone who seriously suggests that homosexuality is contracted from homosexual medicl staff in satanic hospitals at birth, so, you know, maybe my sense of humour on the matter is a touch unbalanced for the next little while.

 

[intricatic]

I agree... hence the tone of my post

You must be coming from the opposite extreme.

I've noticed that tends to happen with these politicized passages. It's always been one of my pet-peeves to try to avoid isolating passages to support arguments that may or may not actually be there.

 

[Gusoceros]

Hi!

In reading Jude, I think it's important not to pursue an eisogesis of one verse in negligence of the overall context of the passage. I've been seeing this quite often, and it perplexes me. Allow me to explain.

The particular passage I'm discussing is this;

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
(Jude 1)

Particularly the bolded portion. Now, if we take this to mean that Sodom and Gomorrah were only wrong in that they lusted after angels, how does this apply to the rest of the book?

At this point I'd like to point out that Jude was speaking about a specific apostate group within the Church that was encouraging deceptive doctrines and encouraging fornication between believers. At least, this is what I've gotten from the text. When we look at the above bolded passage, how does it apply to what Jude is talking about?

What I'm not looking for is a specific interpretation of verse 7 as it relates to Sodom and Gomorrah, in isolation of the rest of the chapter. I don't care about verse 7 except in how it applies to the rest of the chapter. If it helps, read the chapter and skip verse 7 for the time being. Don't even look at it. Completely ignore it's even there.

What is this chapter talking about?

I think the passage is talking about elevating the desires of the flesh, rejecting the Authority of God, acting sexually as animals unrestrained to gender or commitment- and that by these actions the sinners are corrupting themselves.

 

[intricatic]

I think the passage is talking about elevating the desires of the flesh, rejecting the Authority of God, acting sexually as animals unrestrained to gender or commitment- and that by these actions the sinners are corrupting themselves.

The chapter is speaking of this, yes - but in regards to an apostate group within the Church. My point is that to interpret the single passage as regards to Sodom and Gomorrah in specific is to miss the overall context of the book itself. I believe looking at "The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah" spoken about in the chapter (as "Lusting after angels") is utterly inconsistent with the meaning of the book overall. It's talking about people within the Church giving themselves over to vile passions and lusts, while spreading false doctrines.

 

[intricatic]

Most relevant passage, imho;

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Jude 1)

 

[Myriah]

I have no idea what you are seeking here intricatic?

How does all of Jude relate to Sodom and Gomorrah?

Well anyhow, since I'm not quite clear what you are looking for, I have a couple of questions regarding the book of Jude.

Mainly, this verse...

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day..."

************************

What "angels" is the above verse talking about? I think it is important becuz then it talks about "likewise going after strange flesh right after this scripture addresses "the angels" who did likewise?

So my questions are:

1) What angels did this?

and

2) If there is a word for "strange" flesh, why don't the translators come up with a better interpretation than a very vague and subjective word such as "strange"?

Also, regarding the book of Jude... what are the way of Cain, Balaam's error, and Korah's rebellion? I think this is important to establish. The way of Cain I can kind of figure out, but Balaam and Korah, no.

Sometimes it seems were are not interested in looking into the whole picture, but rather to just pick on homosexuals who are not rapists nor pederasts nor prostitutes.

 

[intricatic]

Well, that's actually sort of what I'm trying to get at. The passage is partly a key to understanding it, but I sincerely doubt it has to do with angels except as a figurative representative of some extremity of sin.

In vs. 6, I've been told but have not yet decided if this is correct, that the angels spoken of were the angels that came to Earth before the flood and married women (although it's debatable whether these were angels), which in part heralded the flood that Noah was saved from.

1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
(Genesis 6)

As far as Cain, - Balaam's error, and Korah's rebellion, my theory in progress is that this is talking about a stubborn rebellion against authority.

 

[Myriah]

An interesting fact is that Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of Jude. Not sure if this info is entirely true. Though now I can somewhat see Luther's point if he wanted to remove this book becuz even now in the year 2007 Bible scholars don't know what Balaam's error nor Korah's rebellion are, let alone what "angels" the book of Jude is talking about?

I'd think it only fair to establish these things before people just look at the book of Jude as about all homosexual people being perverts. I know quite a lot of heterosexual real perverts; rapists and molesters of my young female self, not to mention the vile things heterosexuals do that I have seen. If I could tell you how many heteros have invited me to swingers clubs it might shock the heterosexual Christian community.

Among other things I could report about at least 50% of married men hitting on me as the babysitter of their children when I was a young teenager 15 and younger.

We're women so disregarded back then, or were they kept sequestered like under guard or something? Why so little spoken of heterosexuals perverts? This is what I don't understand becuz heterosexuals perverts have always been a big part of any culture and even any church throughout history. Popes with mistresses and things like that.

 

[intricatic]

An interesting fact is that Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of Jude. Not sure if this info is entirely true. Though now I can somewhat see Luther's point if he wanted to remove this book becuz even now in the year 2007 Bible scholars don't know what Balaam's error nor Korah's rebellion are, let alone what "angels" the book of Jude is talking about?

Um, actually, I pointed out exactly what Jude was referring to. But like the rest of the Bible overall, it's difficult to determine exactly what was being referred to. That takes a bit of reasoning.

I'd think it only fair to establish these things before people just look at the book of Jude as about all homosexual people being perverts. I know quite a lot of heterosexual real perverts; rapists and molesters of my young female self, not to mention the vile things heterosexuals do that I have seen. If I could tell you how many heteros have invited me to swingers clubs it might shock the heterosexual Christian community.

Among other things I could report about at least 50% of married men hitting on me as the babysitter of their children when I was a young teenager 15 and younger.

We're women so disregarded back then, or were they kept sequestered like under guard or something? Why so little spoken of heterosexuals perverts? This is what I don't understand becuz heterosexuals perverts have always been a big part of any culture and even any church throughout history. Popes with mistresses and things like that.

That's part of my problem - I think it was referring to;

7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality* and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(Jude 1)

*1608
1) to go a whoring, "give one's self over to fornication"

...an extreme degree of fornication, in general. Remember; in the Early Church, as well as the Hebraic culture that the Church stems from, celibacy and purity were seen not just as socio-sexual concepts that were good goals, but ways of life that were mandated by a holiness code that swept widely through the entire culture and effected every part of daily living. Fornication in general was shameful and vile to that perception, not just homosexual fornication, but all fornication; extramarital sex, adultery, etc... Sex was seen as a very healthy and good thing within the proper context, though.

 

[Myriah]

I read that link on Korah... it didn't make much sense.

Have any insight?

 

[intricatic]

I read that link on Korah... it didn't make much sense.

Have any insight?

He was basically just rebellious against Moses' leadership, and he wanted to go back to Egypt. He was (I believe) the leader of the Levites (that is, Korah) and they were rejecting Moses because they didn't see any profit in wandering around the desert, so Moses called a test to let God decide who would be the chosen leader of the Hebrew people. God caused the earth to split open and swallow Korah and his followers and everything they owned. Like I said, I think it has to do with pride and exalting oneself above everyone else.