Judas & Morality

[morningstar2651]

I've been pondering this story recently...

Considered by Christians to be the man who betrayed God.

He handed his master over to the Romans to be crucified for 30 pieces of silver.

But is this an act of betrayal, or an act of evil for that matter? This one may get some Christians scratching their heads and pondering for quite some time.

If Jesus foresees Judas' betrayal (because it is predestined) and chooses to turn the other cheek, then Judas has no free will, and cannot avoid betraying Jesus. If Judas can not control his betrayal of Jesus, then his punishment and portrayal as a traitor is undeserved.

If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity.

If Jesus only suffered while dying on the cross, and then ascended into Heaven, while Judas must suffer for eternity in Hell, then Judas has suffered much more for the sins of humanity than Jesus, and his role in the Atonement is that much more significant.

What are your thoughts?

 

[morningstar2651]

My view -- his greed led him to kill his master.

He wasn't evil. He was stupid.

 

[Madcoil]

Or maybe jesus said: 'Listen guys, to make this simple, I'm gonna toss this last piece of bread over my shoulder, and the one of you that it hits is gonna have to go and make the romans come get me...'

 

[Eagle's Wind]

If Jesus foresees Judas' betrayal (because it is predestined) and chooses to turn the other cheek, then Judas has no free will, and cannot avoid betraying Jesus. If Judas can not control his betrayal of Jesus, then his punishment and portrayal as a traitor is undeserved.

Excellant argument against predestination! Not all Christains are in agreement in regards with that doctrine.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I've been pondering this story recently...

Considered by Christians to be the man who betrayed God.

He handed his master over to the Romans to be crucified for 30 pieces of silver.

But is this an act of betrayal, or an act of evil for that matter? This one may get some Christians scratching their heads and pondering for quite some time.

If Jesus foresees Judas' betrayal (because it is predestined) and chooses to turn the other cheek, then Judas has no free will, and cannot avoid betraying Jesus. If Judas can not control his betrayal of Jesus, then his punishment and portrayal as a traitor is undeserved.

If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity.

If Jesus only suffered while dying on the cross, and then ascended into Heaven, while Judas must suffer for eternity in Hell, then Judas has suffered much more for the sins of humanity than Jesus, and his role in the Atonement is that much more significant.

What are your thoughts?

I have a cookie in jar. I get into a time machine and go forward in time to see you take my cookie. I go back into the time machine and go back to my normal timeline. Does my knowledge of what you will do take away your free will to do right or wrong? No.

Maybe a weak analogy, but hey - it demonstrates the point and I'm short on time right this second... I don't really have a time machine.

 

[Ledifni]

I have a cookie in jar. I get into a time machine and go forward in time to see you take my cookie. I go back into the time machine and go back to my normal timeline. Does my knowledge of what you will do take away your free will to do right or wrong? No.

Maybe a weak analogy, but hey - it demonstrates the point and I'm short on time right this second... I don't really have a time machine.

Causality would seem to indicate that when you go back, you don't know I'll take the cookie. You know I would have if you hadn't gone back, but because of causality, I can change my actions as a consequence of your time travel. You cannot equate time travel to omniscience.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Causality would seem to indicate that when you go back, you don't know I'll take the cookie. You know I would have if you hadn't gone back, but because of causality, I can change my actions as a consequence of your time travel. You cannot equate time travel to omniscience.

Several things:
1) I believe I stated that it was a weak analogy
2) I am unaware that time travel has been proven to be a possibility
3) You seem to be under the impression that there is only one version of Causality

I do agree that time travel is not equal to omniscience; but then again, that is why I qualified my statement as being weak.

 

[Ledifni]

Several things:
1) I believe I stated that it was a weak analogy
2) I am unaware that time travel has been proven to be a possibility
3) You seem to be under the impression that there is only one version of Causality

I do agree that time travel is not equal to omniscience; but then again, that is why I qualified my statement as being weak.

But it is so weak that it conveys no useful information whatsoever. That was my point. You cannot argue that omniscience leaves room for free will simply because time travel might. The two have nothing to do with one another.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

But it is so weak that it conveys no useful information whatsoever. That was my point. You cannot argue that omniscience leaves room for free will simply because time travel might. The two have nothing to do with one another.

I was unaware that you were the leading expert in both Quantum Mechanics and Omniscience. Perhaps I missed that part where you posted qualifications to make declarations as an authority, both in forum and in field.

Duplicity as it is (since you seem to be motivated to criticize my not going further in depth, yet feel comfortable in not providing citation on your own assertions/opinions on how the imaginary "isn't"), I will further explain the weak link.

omniscient
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
- om·ni·scient·ly adverb

A theory on quantum mechanics:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4097258.stm

So taking the time machine analogy and specifying that to go forward in time, the actual occurrence would be to be placed in stasis and allow time to pass normally with the subject in a state of reduced change. The subject awakes, observes an event thereby gaining the specific knowledge and uses the time machine (this time based on the general theory of relativity) to go back in time with the specific knowledge.
Albeit, limited in knowledge, but knowledge of the event and based on the cited theory in Quantum Mechanics, unable to change the event. This would also be unequal in comparison due to omnipotence being absent, but that is another discussion.

You are *free* to give your own explanation or we can continue in the lessons stemming from a quick and sloppy response made by someone else, but specified as such. Your choice.

 

[LittleNipper]

The Bible indicates that Judas was using his position to steal from the disciples. He took money from the pot. Judas was a man interested in advancement. I feel he saw Jesus as the best means for himself to advance. Judas may have been trying to push the buttons or pull the strings in order to MAKE things happen. It was not the 30 pieces of silver. Judas wanted to place Jesus in a position where Jesus had to make a move which would advance Jesus to the throne of Judea. Judas was believing that the Messiah was all about an earthly throne. Judas was all about making a place for HIMSELF. What Judas wanted to happen is not what GOD was about. The sins of Judas were PRIDE, SCHEMING, THEFT, LYING, DISLOYALITY, UNBELIEF, DESPAIR, AND SCUICIDE. Any of these GOD could forgive. But in the end Judas never REPENTED. Judas as sorry that things did not go his way. Judas was sorry that his plans went astray. Judas was sorry, that Jesus did not turn out as Judas imagined. Judas was not sorry for his sins. Judas was sorry for his HUMILIATION. I feel Jesus looked into the eyes of Judas and knew that Judas would hang himself. I believe the only reason Judas maybe in hell is if he never asked for forgiveness from GOD in the name of Christ Jesus. I really do not see him doing that... Remember Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet it didn't end for Peter there. Peter didn't go and kill himself in dispair...

 

[Ledifni]

I was unaware that you were the leading expert in both Quantum Mechanics and Omniscience. Perhaps I missed that part where you posted qualifications to make declarations as an authority, both in forum and in field.

Duplicity as it is (since you seem to be motivated to criticize my not going further in depth, yet feel comfortable in not providing citation on your own assertions/opinions on how the imaginary "isn't"), I will further explain the weak link.

omniscient
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
- om·ni·scient·ly adverb

A theory on quantum mechanics:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4097258.stm

So taking the time machine analogy and specifying that to go forward in time, the actual occurrence would be to be placed in stasis and allow time to pass normally with the subject in a state of reduced change. The subject awakes, observes an event thereby gaining the specific knowledge and uses the time machine (this time based on the general theory of relativity) to go back in time with the specific knowledge.
Albeit, limited in knowledge, but knowledge of the event and based on the cited theory in Quantum Mechanics, unable to change the event. This would also be unequal in comparison due to omnipotence being absent, but that is another discussion.

You are *free* to give your own explanation or we can continue in the lessons stemming from a quick and sloppy response made by someone else, but specified as such. Your choice.

You misunderstand the theory you just referenced. Essentially, the idea is that you might be able to look through an observer's window into the past but be unable to affect events in the past. That is to say, there are possible solutions to the equations that may allow one to observe, but not affect, the past.

In such a hypothetical situation, information flows one way only -- from the past to you. Since you cannot affect the past, neither can you pass information into the past (as adding information to the past would affect it). This being the case, you have not traveled to the past at all. Rather, you are importing information from the past to the present, which is exactly the same thing as experiencing the past and then remembering it later.

There is no paradox caused by having information about the past, which is the scenario that theory allows. The paradox lies in having information about the future, which the theory you referenced does not allow. Observing the past and drawing information from it is not remotely comparable to omniscience.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

You misunderstand the theory you just referenced. Essentially, the idea is that you might be able to look through an observer's window into the past but be unable to affect events in the past. That is to say, there are possible solutions to the equations that may allow one to observe, but not affect, the past.

In such a hypothetical situation, information flows one way only -- from the past to you. Since you cannot affect the past, neither can you pass information into the past (as adding information to the past would affect it). This being the case, you have not traveled to the past at all. Rather, you are importing information from the past to the present, which is exactly the same thing as experiencing the past and then remembering it later.

There is no paradox caused by having information about the past, which is the scenario that theory allows. The paradox lies in having information about the future, which the theory you referenced does not allow. Observing the past and drawing information from it is not remotely comparable to omniscience.

Perhaps next time you may try reading my post or leave the straw at home. It would reflect better on you if you were going to attempt a correction and/or hijack a thread to maintain a tangent, that you actually stuck to what was said.

 

[BarbB]

The Bible indicates that Judas was using his position to steal from the disciples. He took money from the pot. Judas was a man interested in advancement. I feel he saw Jesus as the best means for himself to advance. Judas may have been trying to push the buttons or pull the strings in order to MAKE things happen. It was not the 30 pieces of silver. Judas wanted to place Jesus in a position where Jesus had to make a move which would advance Jesus to the throne of Judea. Judas was believing that the Messiah was all about an earthly throne. Judas was all about making a place for HIMSELF. What Judas wanted to happen is not what GOD was about. The sins of Judas were PRIDE, SCHEMING, THEFT, LYING, DISLOYALITY, UNBELIEF, DESPAIR, AND SCUICIDE. Any of these GOD could forgive. But in the end Judas never REPENTED. Judas as sorry that things did not go his way. Judas was sorry that his plans went astray. Judas was sorry, that Jesus did not turn out as Judas imagined. Judas was not sorry for his sins. Judas was sorry for his HUMILIATION. I feel Jesus looked into the eyes of Judas and knew that Judas would hang himself. I believe the only reason Judas maybe in hell is if he never asked for forgiveness from GOD in the name of Christ Jesus. I really do not see him doing that... Remember Peter denied Christ 3 times, yet it didn't end for Peter there. Peter didn't go and kill himself in dispair...

Did anybody but me read this very good post? Didn't think so!

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Did anybody but me read this very good post? Didn't think so!

Shhhh... we are all supposed to redirect the topic to address me.

Yes, that was a very good post.

 

[Ledifni]

Perhaps next time you may try reading my post or leave the straw at home. It would reflect better on you if you were going to attempt a correction and/or hijack a thread to maintain a tangent, that you actually stuck to what was said.

I did stick to what was said. May I suggest that your background in relativistic physics is entirely inappropriate to understand this subject. I can only explain it to you. If you do not understand the material, I cannot do more. I recommend that you avoid arguing about scientific theories when you do not truly understand what they mean.

 

[MoonlessNight]

If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity.

So if I kill a guy so I can take his money, but unbeknowst to me he was planning on killing his coworkers the next day, should I be applauded for saving their lives?

 

[John812]

I think there are a lot of people who are going to be judged as not being worthy to go to Heaven. One possibility is that God looked into the hearts of people at the time, found one of the worst people whom God knew would never change to be good, and chose Judas to be the one that would betray Jesus, thus fulfilling the prophecies. He wouldn't punish Judas if Judas did not deserve punishment - God is good. That is one possibilty, there are others.


God Bless ya!