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Judas Iscariot and a question or two about free will

Lik3

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Would Judas be an example of those who will have his part in the lake of fire? It seems obvious but I have wondered if Judas will be saying that he was there with Jesus and has prophesied in His name and have done good works like in Matthew 7:21-23? Would he also be an example of the free will of man? What were to happen if Judas never betrayed Jesus? Would have Jesus been crucified without Jesus being betrayed by Him? It wouldn't be as if God had already known who would have betrayed His Son? If God is omnipotent and omniscient, couldn't have Judas had used free will to either betray Jesus or not to betray Him?

Matthew 7:21-23
"21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ "

Matthew 26:14-16
"14 Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him."

Matthew 26:47-56
"47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I will kiss is the man; seize him.” 49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.”[f] Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant[g] of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled."

Matthew 27:3-10
"3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus[a] was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me."
 

Greg J.

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God already knows the results of any potential "if"s, so he only uses "if"s as a way to communicate with us time-bound, non-omniscient humans. What you are asking really means, what if God had created a different reality than the one that came to pass. Only God knows.

Try to figure out what you are really trying to find out about God and post that as a question.
 
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Lik3

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Okay. Why did Judas betray Jesus and did he have any chance to not betray Jesus? Could what Judas did an issue of free will? God knew Jesus was going to be crucified since Jesus, in human form, prayed about what will happen to Him. Couldn't Judas have at least changed his mind about not betraying Jesus and repented himself? I am not going to say that why God didn't stop it. My point is since He is omniscient and He knows and sees all, couldn't Judas have made the smart decision not to betray Jesus? I cannot say that there is no free will, so Judas could have chosen not to betray Jesus for some money. I know and believe that we all live on God's time as well. So having said that, why did he not ask Jesus to forgive him instead of just repented himself. Couldn't he have repented to Jesus instead? I think just because we all live in His timetable doesn't mean that Judas didn't have a choice. God created everyone with the choice to receive Jesus or not. That is what I believe.
 
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Greg J.

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Judas always had the freedom to choose. God the Father's and Jesus' foreknowledge of what was going to happen had no effect on that. Remember that even when Jesus told Peter he was going to betray him three times, Peter remained blind to that fact until after he had done it. God did not blind Peter (that would be inconsistent with Jesus telling him about it), the blindness was there due to his sin nature (which Peter couldn't change) and all the sin of the world he grew up in.

Judas Iscariot had a pattern of behavior that included stealing money from Jesus' ministry (John 12:4-6). Some of the apostles had realized that Jesus was the Son of God (Matthew 16:13-16) (but hadn't digested what that really meant [John 20:6,8-9]). Judas did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God due to hardness of heart. His betrayal of Jesus for 30 pieces of silver was an extreme sin. What was going on around him should have at least led him to believe that Jesus might be God's choice as the new ruler for Israel (Luke 19:36-38). However, he sinned and kept sinning--keeping his heart hard. His fears had overwhelmed him throughout those last years of his life.

This is the importance of obedience to God in spite of it technically not being needed to be saved. If a person doesn't walk that path, they will be on a path that continues to harden the heart toward God. This is one reason why obedience to God can be so difficult at first. After being on the path that hardens the heart for so many years, it's not going to be overnight that its effects are removed (such as, in Judas' case, spiritual blindness, which we all have to some degree).
 
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bling

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Would Judas be an example of those who will have his part in the lake of fire? It seems obvious but I have wondered if Judas will be saying that he was there with Jesus and has prophesied in His name and have done good works like in Matthew 7:21-23? Would he also be an example of the free will of man? What were to happen if Judas never betrayed Jesus? Would have Jesus been crucified without Jesus being betrayed by Him? It wouldn't be as if God had already known who would have betrayed His Son? If God is omnipotent and omniscient, couldn't have Judas had used free will to either betray Jesus or not to betray Him?

Matthew 7:21-23
"21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ "

Matthew 26:14-16
"14 Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, “What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. 16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him."

Matthew 26:47-56
"47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, “The one I will kiss is the man; seize him.” 49 And he came up to Jesus at once and said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” And he kissed him. 50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.”[f] Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant[g] of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled."

Matthew 27:3-10
"3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus[a] was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.” They said, “What is that to us? See to it yourself.” 5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself. 6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter's field as a burial place for strangers. 8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, 10 and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me."

The problem is with our concept of time. For 100 years now time has been shown scientifically to be relative and we talk about God being outside of time, but turn around and talk about the past and the future and place God in the past and future.

God at the beginning of our time knows what Judas freely choose to do while Judas was a live, since it is history for God even at the beginning of our time. God does not change history.

When God tells the Old Testament writers what Judas did it is like tell them the history of what Judas did.
 
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Winken

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The problem is with our concept of time. For 100 years now time has been shown scientifically to be relative and we talk about God being outside of time, but turn around and talk about the past and the future and place God in the past and future.

God at the beginning of our time knows what Judas freely choose to do while Judas was a live, since it is history for God even at the beginning of our time. God does not change history.

When God tells the Old Testament writers what Judas did it is like tell them the history of what Judas did.

Insightful, to say the least!!
 
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Greg J.

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God sometimes speaks of a future that will be (e.g., and will not change his mind in Hebrews 7:21) and sometimes of a future that can be affected by human actions--but usually won't tell us which is the case. In other words, sometimes the history he states is not always the history that actually comes to pass, but that doesn't mean he didn't really mean it the first time. (e.g., 2 Kings 20:1-6, also in Isaiah 38)

When considering most issues, it is more useful to recognize that God has existed forever (in the past) and will also exist forever (in the future) than using the fact of his existence apart from time, which we can grasp less well (since we have not experienced existence outside of time, although God could reveal to someone whatever he wants to).
 
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Justaman0000

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Jesus knew ahead of time that he would 100% betray him and that's why he chose him. He had to fulfill the prophecies in scripture. If he hadn't then those prophecies would be a lie, making God, who told his prophets to write them, a liar.
 
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