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Judaism

Erik3

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This has probably been asked a lot but...

If a person is a practacing Jew, do you still have to make animal sacrifices?

if not, why not, and on what or whose authority?

also, is the Christian Old Testament the same set of books a Jewish person would follow?

if not, what books are used and why?

Sorry if those are a lot of questions but I'm curious and any help would be great!:clap:

Thanks,
Erik:)
 
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Shay2005

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I am Jewish. No we don't do animal sacrifices.

While Christianity salvation is only granted through jesus. He is like the "middleman" right?

In Judaism studying torah and doing acts of chesed (kindness) and giving to tzedekah (charity) are what I focus on.

You can do other stuff than sacrifice animals to HaShem. Here are some verses in the Bible and Torah of other stuff people did instead of sacrificing animals:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Proof of other non-blood sacrifices:


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them. (Numbers 16:47)[/font]


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And in the following verse we see jewelry offered for atonement, but no blood is shed.[/font]



[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So we have brought as an offering to the Eternal the gold articles each of us acquired-- armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces-- to make atonement for ourselves before the Eternal. (Numbers 31:50)[/font]


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So it is obvious, that a blood sacrifice is not needed! Another example is that Isaiah had his sin removed by a live coal:[/font]


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. (Isaiah 6:6-7)[/font]


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]G-d gave many different methods of atonement to the Jews. G-d reminded them that the Laws of G-d were more important than the sacrifices:[/font]


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your G-d and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. [Jeremiah 7:22-23)[/font]









Hope this helps:)















[/font]
 
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nasir

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I'm not Jewish, but no, practicing Jews do not still make sacrifices. This is so because the Temple, in which sacrifices must be made, no longer exists. The Messiah will be the one to reconstruct the Temple.

Yes, what Christians have labeled the "Old Testament" is the same as the Hebrew Bible. Aside from the Bible, Jews also read the Talmud and other rabbinical literature written over the centuries.
 
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rahma

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When the temple was destroyed, the Jewish community made the shift from a temple based religion to a home and community based religion. If I remember from my class correctly, the table became the temple, and the house and rabbis the center of knowledge. Rabbinic Judaism wrote volumes on the Bible, applying it to a religious life without a temple. Applications of the laws of Moses (as) were interpreted by these learned scholars to create the beginnings of the Orthodox Judaism we see today.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Hmm, let's start with Rahma's post & work backwards.

When the temple was destroyed, the Jewish community made the shift from a temple based religion to a home and community based religion. If I remember from my class correctly, the table became the temple, and the house and rabbis the center of knowledge. Rabbinic Judaism wrote volumes on the Bible, applying it to a religious life without a temple. Applications of the laws of Moses (as) were interpreted by these learned scholars to create the beginnings of the Orthodox Judaism we see today.
Rahma, that's pretty good & more or less accurate. I would just like to add that (in our view) the Rabbinic Judaism that developed after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE :( was a wholly natural adaptation/extension of mainstream Pharisaical Judaism (see http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm#Ancient) as it existed at the time. (Please don't get me started on how the Gospels slander the Pharisees :mad: ; see http://tinyurl.com/34a2o.) Rahma, we'll give you a box of (kosher, of course!) wholewheat chocolate chip cookies!

Kabbalah (esoteric Jewish mysticism) is, quite properly, the province of very few. Only the most pious, learned & saintly need delve into kabbalah (see http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm). That chain of "Kabbalah Centers" has as much to do with real kabbala as a Twinkie :sick: has to do with real pastry.)

I hate the word "sacrifice"; it really is a gross mistranslation of the Hebrew word korban (singular), which comes from a root meaning "to approach" or "to draw near/close to".

Following is an article by Rabbi Shlomo Riskin here in Israel. I saved it from many years ago. It is his column on the weekly Torah portion of Vayikra, which is both what we call Leviticus & the name of the first weekly portion from that book. (His column still appears in Friday's Jerusalem Post.)

“Sacrifices from the heart”

Much of the third book in the Torah, Leviticus, is devoted to the priestly character of Israel and the world of sacrifices. Although there is a vast difference between an animal sacrifice brought in Jerusalem and a human sacrifice to Moloch, all one has to do is mention animal sacrifices to a liberal Jew and one sees how quickly he winces.

As long as Judaism deals with universal concepts such as freedom, justice and the prophetic dream, then everything is sweet and light and palpable. However, from a public relations perspective, it might be best to leave those sacrifices buried in the closet. After all, there is no Temple today, and a culture of animal sacrifices smacks of primitive cults, a form of Judaism alien to the modern spirit.

It should not come as a surprise, therefore, that when any particular segment of the Jewish people decides to make a change, the first place they use their scalpel is on the Book of Leviticus, and the ancient world of sacrifice portrayed in this week’s Torah reading, Vayikra.

It’s the first thing to go, and anyone can find more modern and sophisticated prayer books with gaps or changes when the service ordinarily recalls the Temple sacrifices brought on festivals, Shabbat musaf and Rosh Hodesh; they make a quick, clean incision with nary a look backwards. There is just too much good material around in Genesis and Exodus to get stuck in the quagmire of Leviticus.

However, sometimes an incision can miss the mark completely, creating a new wound where there wasn’t one to begin with. I’m afraid that in dedicating their lives to the “cultural revolution” in judaism, certain Jews may have overlooked the ethical structurepresented in the text itself, which would be clearer if only one stood back a moment and read carefully.

Maimonedes (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/rambam.htm), in his Guide to the Perplexed, suggests that the entire sacrificial cult was a carry-over from the Egyptian experience; the Jews had to be given a substitute sacrificial ritual which would direct their energies to God. Although Nachmanides (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/ramban.htm) in his biblical commentary strongly disagrees with the approach in the Guide, Maimonedes’ approach expresses a crucial educational principle. That is, the individual must be directed in accordance with his inherent predilection and historical context, ennobled and elevated naturally and spontaneously.

Nachmanides himself finds symbolic and mystical meaning underlying sacrificial ritual, imbuing each detail with transcendant and eternal significance. Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch (http://www.ou.org/pardes/bios/hirsch.htm) and Rabbi David Zeff Hoffman, in their respective biblical commentaries, develop the symbolic themes reflected in each category of sacrifice.

There are four – almost like archetypes. The first is the korban olah, or “the whole burnt offering,” in which everything is completely sent up to God, and neither priest nor penitent gets an opportunity to eat any of it. This expresses the truth that we owe the very fibre of our being to God, and must dedicate our lives entirely to His service. Although he survives the binding, Isaac is nevertheless called a “whole burnt offering,” a figure who personifies total commitment to God.

Morever, this sacrifice is brought when a person, struggling to overcome his “evil inclination,” finally empowers it to the extent that he even rids himself of evil thoughts. In an act of recognition top his new determined state of mind, he offers a complete and total sacrifice, in effect his own being.

It is for this reason that the korban olah is brought during the festivals, each one of which signifies a turning point in the year and in the individual’s life, a contain a message of renewed dedication and devotion.

The second kind of sacrifice is the mincha, the meal offering, something simple, easily accessible, as flour and oil. If the person is so poor that he cannot afford to bring either a bull or a goat, or even a turtle-dove, he need not feel shame because ofg his meager funds. The Torah calls his offering of meal, oil and frankincense a holy of holies.

With this we see that everybody can serve God on his own level. No matter how unfortunate one is, there is always someone less fortunate who would do anything to be in your position. And an offering of meal given by one individual may be more precious in God’s eyes than the most expensive cattle given by another. “The Compassionate One desires the heart most of all.” Furthermore, since so many of us tend to take the basics – the flour and the oil of life – for granted, as if owed to us, isn’t it important to thank God for these as well?

The third category is the hatat, the sin offering. When a person brings this sacrifice, he places his hands on the head of the animal and recites the confessional. In effect, this offering says that every person is given life and the correct way to live it. One wrong move could be your last move, and although the sin may have been committed by accident or temporary amnesia, it still must be expiated. Sin is serious. A person cannot ignore the ramifications of his actions and must be given a physical means to atone for them.

The fourth category is the exact opposite of a sin offering. A thanksgiving or peace-offering takes place when there is an overflow of feeling because of a special event, like a birth, or a large inheritance, or the accomplishment of a significant milestone. All you really want to say is: Thank God. Most important, these sacrifices are eaten by those who bring them, and by the priests, amid songs of thanksgiving and lessons of Torah, enabling every Jew to partake, as it were, at God’s table as His honored guests.

Sacrifices aren’t simply a tapestry of blood and guts, the fetishes of a primitive cult seeking to drown itself in the mystery of the blood and the ecstasy of the fire. They actually provide a broad overview of overcoming pitfalls, trials and tribulations. Occasionally, they are even a way of celebrating.”
I think Rabbi Riskin sums it up pretty well.

Let me clarify something. The order of Temple offerings was merely one part of the process whereby a Jew could repent of his/her sins; by itself, isolated, bringing an offering was insufficient. Since the order of offerings is, to our sorrow :cry: , temporarily suspended, we must rely, for the time being, on the other steps of the process.

What are the other steps of the process? Hosea 14:2-3 (read in synagogue on the Sabbath between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur) says:

Return, O Israel, unto the Lord your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take with you words, and return unto the Lord; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.
From this & other verses, we learn that the repentant sinner must understand, confess & acknowledge his sin (before God), promise not to do it again & then actually not do it again. This is basically it. A korban that was unaccompanied by a contrite heart, sincere confession, etc. was less than useless.

Rabbi Riskin also quotes Rav Avraham Yitzhak Hacohen Kook (http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/kook.htm) as teaching that, “The most significant part of the sacrifice was never meant to be the savoury smell of the burning meat, but the trembling sincerity of the human heart.”

See http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm for a very good read on the whole issue of korbanot.

It is a principle of traditional, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism that when the Messiah comes, he will fully restore & reinstitute the order of offerings in full. We pray for this 3 times a day (in each of our daily prayer services).

Erik3 asked:

also, is the Christian Old Testament the same set of books a Jewish person would follow?

if not, what books are used and why?
We (orthodox Jews) believe that whereas the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy) has existed in its current form since God finished dictating it to Moses our Teacher, the other books of the Tanakh were codified and "canonized" by our Sages after the destruction of the Second Temple in CE 70. We believe that the authorship of the 39 books of the Tanakh is as follows:

Genesis to Deuteronomy: God dictated, Moses wrote it down.

Joshua wrote his own book.

Judges was written by Samuel.

I & II Samuel was written by Samuel and other prophets & chroniclers such as Gad and Nathan.

I & II Kings are compilations.

Isaiah wrote his own book.

Jeremiah wrote his own book.

Ezekiel wrote his own book.

Hosea wrote his own book.

Joel wrote his own book.

Amos wrote his own book.

Ovadiah wrote his own book.

Jonah wrote his own book.

Micah wrote his own book.

Nahum wrote his own book.

Habakkuk wrote his own book.

Zephaniah wrote his own book.

Haggai wrote his own book.

Zechariah wrote his own book.

This is a disagreement regarding Malachi (which literally means "My messenger"). Some of our Sages say that such a person with such a name wrote his own book; others say Malachi was Ezra.

Psalms was written by King David, King Solomon, Asaph, Heiman, etc.

Proverbs was written by King Solomon, Agur and Lemuel.

The verdict is still out on Job. Some say it was written by Job himself. Others say that the book is a parable.

Song of Songs was written by King Solomon.

Ruth was written by Samuel.

Lamentations was written by Jeremiah.

Ecclesiastes was written by King Solomon.

Esther was written by Esther and Mordecai.

Daniel wrote his own book.

Ezra wrote his own book.

Nehemiah wrote his own book.

I & II Chronicles were written by Ezra.

The above is the order in which the books appear in a Jewish Tanakh.

The first 5 books are the Torah. The next 21 are the Prophets, or Nevi'im, in Hebrew. The next 13 are the Writings, Ketuvim, in Hebrew. Hence the acronym Tanakh (which is what we call what you call the "OT").

Our Sages excluded the so-called Aprocryphal books from the Tanakh (what we call what you call the "Old Testament") for several reasons. Ferinstance, I Maccabees, while considered to be very historically accurate & written by a believing Jew, was not considered to be Divinely inspired. The Prayer of Manasseh, while quite moving & a spiritual gem, was considered to be inauthentic (i.e., not by King Manasseh) as well as uninspired. Other books were considered to be full of nonsense (i.e. ideas that didn't jibe with the Torah), as well as inauthentic and/or uninspired.

http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm and http://www.ou.org/torah/belief.html are pretty good sites for anyone who wants to learn about Judaism. They have articles on everything.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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rahma

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stillsmallvoice said:

Thank you for the very informative post. I will inshaAllah read those links you had at the bottom. I am in serious need of a refresher

attachment.php
 
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For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7 : 22 - 23

Shay/Stillsmallvoice would either/both of you comment on these verses. They seem to confirm what you have both illuminated and yet it is difficult not to recognise the possible contradiction of meaning either. Nonetheless a more quintessential Jewish perspective would be interesting.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi Thunvael!

I will look up Jeremiah 7:22-23 in the synagogue library when I go to 06:00 morning prayers tomorrow.

Until then, off the top o' me head (such as it is)...

Except for the Passover lamb, God didn't speak to us concerning offerings when He took us out of Egypt. That came later.

Maybe Jeremiah was trying to make the same point as Samuel when the latter bawled out Saul in I Samuel 15:22.

And Samuel said: 'Has the Lord as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in hearkening to the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.'
Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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Perceivence

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stillsmallvoice said:
Hi all!

Perceivence, we believe that prophecy temporarily ceased with Malachi & will be reactivated in full when the Messiah comes.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv :wave:
Thanks!

Just one more question:

Is there a particular reason that you believe that? What is it?
 
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crystalpc

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stillsmallvoice said:
Hi all!

Perceivence, we believe that prophecy temporarily ceased with Malachi & will be reactivated in full when the Messiah comes.

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv :wave:
I have to say that this was informative. I was especially interested in your word for sacrifice, Korban...
 
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Hix

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Actually yes we still do make sacrifices, the Tanach talks about HaShem not being pleased with animal sacrifices but with sacrifices of the heart alone. When the temple was destroyed, G-d was breaking down every barrier that stood between us and him, finally the promise of Dueteronomy to be a "nation of Priests" could be fulfilled, everyone of us is a priest and we bring G-d offerings of righteousness daily by performing the mitzvot.

Hosea 3:4-5 – (4) For the people of Israel shall remain many days without a king, and without a nobleman, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod, and without teraphim; (5) Afterwards, shall the people of Israel return, and seek the L-rd their G-d and David their king; and they shall fear the L-rd and His goodness in the end of days.


Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

First, please accept my apologies for taking so long with looking up that Jeremiah reference in Thunvael's post. What I found in the edition of Jerremiah in my synagogue library jibes with my reference to I Samuel 15:22, i.e. that obeying God and walking in His ways are better than the offerings. In Jeremiah's time, the order of offerings had, for too many people, become an automaton-like set of rituals (at the expense of moral & ethical behavior); it was this that he was railing against.

Perceivence asked:

Is there a particular reason that you believe that? What is it?
1) Malachi is the last recorded prophet in the Tanakh.

2) This is the normative & authoritative teaching of our Sages.

There is/was such a thing as a bat kol.

I cite the Encyclopedia Judaica:



A “bat kol” [literally “daughter of a voice”] is a heavenly voice that reveals God’s will, choice or judgement to man.
Our Sages tell us that the bat kol was heard in the Biblical period; the Talmud says that the bat kol – inter alia –declared Tamar’s innocence, that Samuel had not abused his position for personal gain & that King Solomon’s judgement with the two hookers & their babies was correct. (The foregoing is a representative, not exhaustive, list.)

While we believe that active prophecy ceased with Malachi, our Sages say that after that, the bat kol remained the sole means of direct communication between God and man, until it too stopped (in the 4th-5th centuries CE). (We believe that both active prophecy and the bat kol will be reestablished when the Messiah comes; may this be very soon!)

Deuteronomy 30:12-14 tells us that the Torah, “is not in Heaven...” and that it, “is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart that you may do it.” There is a very famous account in the Talmud that the Sages of the Sanhedrin (sometime after the destruction of the Temple in CE 70 by the Romans) were debating a particularly fine point of Jewish law in which Rabbis Joshua and Eliezer were arguing different positions. The Sanhedrin had to vote & thus establish the normative Jewish law on this particular point. A bat kol declared that Rabbi Eliezer was right. However, Rabbi Joshua cited the above quote from Deuteronomy 30:12-14 to argue that the bat kol had no authority to decide such an issue of Jewish law, that authority had been given to the Sages to decide (see Deuteronomy 17:8-11). The vote went in favor of Rabbi Joshua’s view.

Crystalpc posted:

I have to say that this was informative.
Thank you!

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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crystalpc

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stillsmallvoice said:
Hi all!

First, please accept my apologies for taking so long with looking up that Jeremiah reference in Thunvael's post. What I found in the edition of Jerremiah in my synagogue library jibes with my reference to I Samuel 15:22, i.e. that obeying God and walking in His ways are better than the offerings. In Jeremiah's time, the order of offerings had, for too many people, become an automaton-like set of rituals (at the expense of moral & ethical behavior); it was this that he was railing against.

Perceivence asked:


1) Malachi is the last recorded prophet in the Tanakh.

2) This is the normative & authoritative teaching of our Sages.

There is/was such a thing as a bat kol.

I cite the Encyclopedia Judaica:




Our Sages tell us that the bat kol was heard in the Biblical period; the Talmud says that the bat kol – inter alia –declared Tamar’s innocence, that Samuel had not abused his position for personal gain & that King Solomon’s judgement with the two hookers & their babies was correct. (The foregoing is a representative, not exhaustive, list.)

While we believe that active prophecy ceased with Malachi, our Sages say that after that, the bat kol remained the sole means of direct communication between God and man, until it too stopped (in the 4th-5th centuries CE). (We believe that both active prophecy and the bat kol will be reestablished when the Messiah comes; may this be very soon!)

Deuteronomy 30:12-14 tells us that the Torah, “is not in Heaven...” and that it, “is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart that you may do it.” There is a very famous account in the Talmud that the Sages of the Sanhedrin (sometime after the destruction of the Temple in CE 70 by the Romans) were debating a particularly fine point of Jewish law in which Rabbis Joshua and Eliezer were arguing different positions. The Sanhedrin had to vote & thus establish the normative Jewish law on this particular point. A bat kol declared that Rabbi Eliezer was right. However, Rabbi Joshua cited the above quote from Deuteronomy 30:12-14 to argue that the bat kol had no authority to decide such an issue of Jewish law, that authority had been given to the Sages to decide (see Deuteronomy 17:8-11). The vote went in favor of Rabbi Joshua’s view.

Crystalpc posted:


Thank you!

Be well!

ssv :wave:
I have a further question, do you think that sacrifice, or Korban will ever be reinstated? I hear that there is training in Israel for temple service. Is this an Orthodox movement in Israel? By the way thank you for the links. I had never read about Moshe Mamaion until last night. Most of my reading has been Dimont, who deals with the dispersion mainly in Eastern Europe and he made mention of the Kaballah as a comfort to the Jewish people in that area. As I said in a previous thread, I love history.
 
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crystalpc

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Hix said:
.

Hosea 3:4-5 – (4) For the people of Israel shall remain many days without a king, and without a nobleman, and without a sacrifice, and without a pillar, and without an ephod, and without teraphim; (5) Afterwards, shall the people of Israel return, and seek the L-rd their G-d and David their king; and they shall fear the L-rd and His goodness in the end of days.


Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~
Hix do you see this happening anytime in the near future? I asked Stillsmallvoice the same question. Do Orthodox Jews look for this as a reality that could happen if the temple was rebuilt?
 
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crystalpc

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stillsmallvoice said:
While we believe that active prophecy ceased with Malachi, our Sages say that after that, the bat kol remained the sole means of direct communication between God and man, until it too stopped (in the 4th-5th centuries CE). (We believe that both active prophecy and the bat kol will be reestablished when the Messiah comes; may this be very soon!)
Rereading this I see an answer to one of my questions above.
 
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