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Another is what our purpose is for mortality. You can't answer these questions.
And if there is not emotion tied with any commitment to God them whT makes us do the things we do including you.
You said not to trust your feelings. How can you have sincere focused feelings without emotions attached. There are religions that that feed on emotions but it is short lived. My experiences were step by step line upon line. Apples and oranges.
Amen!!Sounds heavily based on a very calculated and elevated emotionalism. What of those who wonder and pray and look into their hearts and all this and don't receive some kind of miraculous feeling of being touched by God as to the truth of Mormonism/the BOM/Joseph Smith? If feelings validate what is holy now, then why would they not also validate what is not?
Oddly enough, my former family member who was Mormon for a little while became interested in the LDS as a result of talking with the contractor who was working on my father's house at the time, who was Mormon and very nice and friendly and all the other adjectives that usually describe Mormons. She figured that if he was such a happy guy, maybe there's something to that religion that makes him that way. So that had nothing to do with Joseph Smith in particular, either (though I don't doubt that she came to believe the LDS narrative in the course of joining the LDS). I guess she left when the temporary feelings of happiness went away and she realized that there should probably be something more than transitory feelings to ones experience of a religion. Hmmm.
I also have to wonder how you can claim to have faith in Christ while also having faith in the notion of a restoration which by its very nature means that you must believe that the church which Christ founded fell into worldwide apostasy at some point, to the degree that such a 'restoration' was necessary. Mormons must have a very low view of Christ's words in verses like Matthew 16:18 or Matthew 28:20.
So you've got faith that Jesus Christ is your savior and the savior of the whole world, but not that the apostle's confession of faith is the rock upon which the Church over which the gates of hell will not triumph is built, or that Christ is truly with us always? Jesus just says this stuff, and then through the passage of time it somehow stops applying to His followers until Joseph Smith 'restores' them and the church that Jesus was talking about via his visions and the new gospel which he produces? That doesn't seem like faith in Christ at all.
All restorationist movements must have such faith in their messengers, since by virtue of their stance towards the religions that came before them they cannot trust whatever came before as reliable, which leaves them with only whatever their messenger(s) says as truth. Hence Mormons believe in the necessity of their restoration due to a supposed 'corruption' of every other church in the world, just like Muslims believe in the necessity of their religion's 'call to return to God' due to their belief that the previous religions that they do recognize as starting off correctly ended up in such a state of decay by the time of Muhammad that the world needed to be given Islam in order to get them back on the 'right path'. The reasons for these beliefs may differ slightly (or not...from what I can tell, both LDS and Muslims believe in some form of scriptural corruption, to at least some degree), the overall message is the same: God somehow did not preserve what had been given to the people before the coming of prophet X, but now He totally will, because the new religion of prophet X is His favorite/actual one...He just waited ~600/1820 years to get around to establishing in on earth...because...reasons.
Meanwhile, the historical sources regarding how actual Christians of the early Church viewed themselves in relation to other religions reveal a different approach. Most famously St. Justin Martyr (d. 165 AD) gave us the idea of the 'seeds of the Word' (that is, Jesus Christ) in preexisting religious philosophies, whereby they can be seen as precursors which pointed to the full revelation of Christ the Lord which would come in time in Christianity. And this is how it actually worked out in the case of every apostolic church. In the case of my own, if you talk to some Copts about the beginning of our church, they will likely at some point tell you with much pride that one of the reasons why their forefathers took so readily to Christianity upon being preached to by St. Mark the Apostle was that they saw his message foreshadowed in their own preexisting native religion and its symbols, e.g., the famous ankh/crux ansata which was the Egyptian symbol of eternal life. So it would have made no sense of St. Mark to come to Egypt and simply start telling the people that they've got it all wrong, they've fallen away somehow from the true message of God, etc. as restorationists must say. Similarly, while the apostles and their disciples had great disagreements with the Jews who would not recognize Christ as the messiah, I don't recall anywhere where it is unambiguously claimed that the Christ-denying Jews actually corrupted their scriptures (though I have heard some modern commentators argue for such an understanding of particular verses). That would have made no sense to claim, either, since the apostles heavily quoted and alluded to those very same scriptures in arguing for Christ to those very same Jews, since the apostles were also themselves Jews.
So no restorationist can credibly claim to be restoring the early Church or the faith to 'what God wanted'. Restorationism is an inherently anti-God concept, as it presupposes that God didn't know what He was doing when He founded the Church in the first place. Even those verses in the Bible which speak of coming heresies don't claim that they will require a complete tear-down of the Church and its restoration by _____ (Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Sun Myung Moon, Felix Manalo, etc.), as that's not the 'point' behind God's allowing division among believers in the first place. For example, 1 Corinthians 11:19 states: "For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you." (And not, "for there must also be factions among you, so that in approximately 1800 years a farm boy in upstate NY involved in treasure hunting and serial wife-marrying can set you all straight regarding what we mean and don't mean.")
Amen. Our faith is not based on emotion, but on divine fact. God says "believe". Fact. We believe. Not, only if you get some uncomfortable feeling in your chest based on one taken-out-of-context verse do you actually believe something.The problem is in conflating your feelings with what is true, not in having feelings period. That's why I chose a word like 'sober', rather than 'emotionless'. If we are carried away in emotionalism, we may embrace things that are in fact not true because of they way that they make us feel.
Yes, but that in itself does not make something true any more than a lack of emotional reaction to something makes it false.
Where did I say we have no feelings? Not being overwhelmed with emotionalism is living a balanced spiritual life, not being a robot with no feelings. When you see Pentecostals, for instance, writhing on the floor and making animal sounds, do you say "Wow...those people are really overtaken by the spirit! They must have great truth!", or do you say "Wow...that's not something healthy...these people are clearly under the influence of something, but it is not the Holy Spirit"? I would be inclined toward the latter, because again, feeling something is not a sign of truth.
I mean, seriously...look at a famous manifestation of this kind of spirituality in our time -- the so called "Toronto Blessing" began in 1994:
If something strikes you as wrong about the activity in that video (and it should), then perhaps you understand where I am coming from when I am told that something is true because you feel it is.
The only lying going on here is your lie that I'm claiming that we cannot feel deep feelings for Christ. I never wrote that and I never would. Orthodox Christianity engenders very deep and emotionally-resonant experiences in people who live it. The key is that the emotion doesn't stand in for sober, grounded spirituality and theology, so that we remember to test all things, and not be accepting of things because they are emotionally affecting. I have personally seen readers in my church cry during the Holy Week readings when we recall the crucifixion of our Lord. Those were real tears for our Lord and the passion which He underwent on our behalf. But behind the tears, the real power and glory of God is manifest through the event itself, not our reaction to it (as that is up to the individual's temperament). We would still have the same Lord and Savior even if no one cried.
A Coptic song called "O My Fathers of the Wilderness"
In case the subtitles don't turn on, the first verse goes:
"O my fathers of the wilderness, how I wish I could live the way you lived / It was a life of prayers, vigil, and tears for the Lord Jesus"
So, despite your slander and exaggeration, we very much positively affirm those tears which come to the believer, as to our fathers, the monks in the desert...only not any epistemology which places emotional reaction as paramount in the search for or confirmation of truth. Everything must have depth and solid reasons for being, not "I knew that this was true with my feelings."
Amen. Our faith is not based on emotion, but on divine fact. God says "believe". Fact. We believe. Not, only if you get some uncomfortable feeling in your chest based on one taken-out-of-context verse do you actually believe something.
What FB isn't saying is, LDS are taught to NOT show their feelings. Why do they cross their arms when they stand and pray, instead of opening them to the Spirit? Because its a reminder for them to not get emotional about their faith. One dichotomy after another when it comes to mormonism.
Amen. Our faith is not based on emotion, but on divine fact. God says "believe". Fact. We believe. Not, only if you get some uncomfortable feeling in your chest based on one taken-out-of-context verse do you actually believe something.
What FB isn't saying is, LDS are taught to NOT show their feelings. Why do they cross their arms when they stand and pray, instead of opening them to the Spirit? Because its a reminder for them to not get emotional about their faith. One dichotomy after another when it comes to mormonism.
Habit mostly, from childhood encouragement in the culture. Its billed as "trusting in God". Not all Mormons do this, but there are some of them who frown on failing to when they see fellow Mormons leaving their arms at their sides while praying.What??? They cross their arms when praying?? What on earth for???
True.
Is that why they do that? I must admit I've never actually seen a Mormon pray, but I've heard that they pray that way, but never seen an explanation for it. I looked it up and found some answers on a Mormon message board at BYU:
- It's cultural
- It's easier to affect during prayer meetings
- It keeps kids from being a nuisance when they should be praying
- It's not necessary, strictly speaking, but probably developed over time due to a lack of specific instruction on prayer posture in scriptures
Your full of it. Joseph Smth was a great man who sacrificed his life for the restoration. But there have been many who hav sacrificed their lives for the building up of the kingdom of God on earth. But Joseph Smith is not my savior. He never paid for be of my sins and in fact he never could even pay for his own. I don't care if you think I'm emotional. You are as well. Your faith is emotional based. Do you feel emotions?"fatboys, post: 70046452, member: 18544"]Back at the time of JS the mobbers thought the same thing when they murdered him.
---Thought "what" was the same thing? Please clarify in order for me to answer correctly.
Do you really think that my faith is in Joseph Smith and not a restoration?
--How cleverly you segued from the question of JS to "a restoration". At least from your side. From my side its simply very sad. Fear is not of God. Then you must have lied when you stated that you didn't know if you could continue to believe in God if JS was found to be the charlatan that he was. Lying is not of God.
People find the church without ever hearing of Joseph Smith.
--More people leave the church after hearing the truth about JS. And?
If fact a gal that I was able to teach over the Internet and she eventually joined the church after I sent the missionaries to her was baptized without ever believing Joseph Smith was a prophet.
---I find that impossible to believe. No one can join the LDS w/o agreeing that JS is a prophet of God. It's been built into the traditional speech you must attest to when baptized since the beginning of JS's mormonism. You can now claim that is not true all you want, but you and I both know better.
My testimony of the restored gospel does not rely on Joseph Smith. My faith is based on Jesus Christ. Don't care if you think it is the wrong one. I KNOW what I believe is the right path for me.
---Your testimony relies on JS. Who are you kidding here? You? If JS is eliminated from mormonism, it evaporates. That's why only Mormons can believe him. Because they have to in order to support up their "belief system" which puts JS before God. You believe in belief, not God. Can't help it if you don't dare face that. Fear is not of God.
When you can't interpret the divine facts correctly then your not going to have a true faith. Has God ever reaveal a truth to you?Amen. Our faith is not based on emotion, but on divine fact. God says "believe". Fact. We believe. Not, only if you get some uncomfortable feeling in your chest based on one taken-out-of-context verse do you actually believe something.
What FB isn't saying is, LDS are taught to NOT show their feelings. Why do they cross their arms when they stand and pray, instead of opening them to the Spirit? Because its a reminder for them to not get emotional about their faith. One dichotomy after another when it comes to mormonism.
Again your full of it. Everyone that has a belief in anything is base n emotion. You can have faith without it.Amen. Our faith is not based on emotion, but on divine fact. God says "believe". Fact. We believe. Not, only if you get some uncomfortable feeling in your chest based on one taken-out-of-context verse do you actually believe something.
What FB isn't saying is, LDS are taught to NOT show their feelings. Why do they cross their arms when they stand and pray, instead of opening them to the Spirit? Because its a reminder for them to not get emotional about their faith. One dichotomy after another when it comes to mormonism.
We are taught as a little kid to fold our arms which helps keep them occupied. There is no teaching that we have to fold our arms to pray. I have given many prayers without doing so. So once again you strain at a nat. It is very funny to see you guys so desperate that you bring up folding our arm!!!!? How sillyJust curious---not that it matters, it doesn't say specifically, however, I was expecting something more along these lines:
Psa_28:2 Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.
Psa_63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.
Psa_119:48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.
Psa_134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.
Lam_3:41 Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens.
And there is this
Luk_18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
So the bible does speak of uplifted hands. I don't hold to waving them around though. And most in our church do not lift their hands, but some do and I see no reason not to.
The Jews have specific postures, there are about 6 of them, most of the prayer are done standing up
1Ch 23:30 And to stand every morning to thank and praise the LORD, and likewise at even;
2Ch_20:9 If, when evil cometh upon us, as the sword, judgment, or pestilence, or famine, we stand before this house, and in thy presence, (for thy name is in this house,) and cry unto thee in our affliction, then thou wilt hear and help.
2Ch_29:11 My sons, be not now negligent: for the LORD hath chosen you to stand before him, to serve him, and that ye should minister unto him, and burn incense.
Neh_9:5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise.
However, there are other postures, to kneeling and bowing down, with head against ground. They do stand with their hands lifted, but not high, like about waist high, palms up. There are similarities to Muslims --but then they both claim Abraham.
I don't believe it matters, you can pray while laying down in bed or anywhere. It's just strange they think the bible says nothing about posture in prayer and had never heard of any that pray with arms crossed. That is, as was stated, a sign of resentment or distance from the one spoken to in most cultures.
We are taught as a little kid to fold our arms which helps keep them occupied. There is no teaching that we have to fold our arms to pray. I have given many prayers without doing so. So once again you strain at a nat. It is very funny to see you guys so desperate that you bring up folding our arm!!!!? How silly
Just curious---not that it matters,
I don't believe it matters, you can pray while laying down in bed or anywhere.
That's your opinion, based on.....? What? What you are instructed to believe? Only you believe that as a Mormon. No one else does, or has to accept what you claim as truth. You were told stories about him. You never knew him personally, so how can you tell? Do you always get your faith second-hand?Your full of it. Joseph Smth was a great man who sacrificed his life for the restoration. But there have been many who hav sacrificed their lives for the building up of the kingdom of God on earth. But Joseph Smith is not my savior. He never paid for be of my sins and in fact he never could even pay for his own. I don't care if you think I'm emotional. You are as well. Your faith is emotional based. Do you feel emotions?
He has to me. That the BoM is nothing more than a fabrication done in His Name. It does contain bits and pieces of His Word copied almost word for word from existing divine text, and sometimes mechanically manipulated by men to say what they wanted God to say. (Someone once suggested to me that's why God will not destroy the BoM. It contains parts of His Holy Word. I don't buy into that, but who knows why He allows it to continue? I'm more of the personal opinion that it serves as a warning signpost to the elect how its so easy to fall into spiritual error when human pride is promoted.)When you can't interpret the divine facts correctly then your not going to have a true faith. Has God ever reaveal a truth to you?
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