LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

tickingclocker said:

God doesn't ask us for "success". That spiritual fruit comes entirely from His Will. He only asks us to be faithful and available for the Holy Spirit to do as HE sees fit through us. Right, TBL?!

I love Christianity. It's so simple a child can understand it. No more series of endless hoops to jump through!

Click to expand...

Yup. I believe God uses each of our special gifts in His plan for each of us. Which is a very individual plan. And I believe that the Holy Spirit works to execute that plan within us. Some of my not great qualities (IMHO), God has used them in some way for His glory. I love seeing that. He changes minds. I know! Sometimes I need a good konk on the head to realize it, but God teaches for the most part lovingly.

ToBeLoved said:

On this thread, I hope that I have put a thought in your mind. The next weeks as you give countless hours of labor to your church, maybe you'll think about what Christ 'really' wants from us. That is to love Him. To be in relationship with Him. Prayer (not just asking for forgiveness) but quiet time to just cast your cares upon Him. To feel the rest He promises us when we put our faith in Him. Peace that surpasses all understanding. That you will spend more time worshipping Him for all He has done for you, which gives you eternal life with Him in paradise. Singing that next song a little louder (as long as it's about Christ) with your entire soul, thinking about all He has given you right now, during many moments. That He asks very little of us compared to what He has lovingly given.

Realizing that labor for your church is fine, cleaning toilets whatever, but what God says He wants from you is all of you. He paid a high price for you. Desire things of the spirit, to become so close to God that nothing else is more important.

If you and the others think about that even once, I have been successful.

Click to expand...

And what if I currently (without your involvement):
1) Don't give countless hours of labor to my church
2) Do think about what Christ really wants from us (or me in particular).
3) Do think of my love for Him and relationship with Him (current state and deepening it).
4) Do Pray and have quiet time to just cast your cares upon Him, and do feel the rest He promises us when we put our faith in Him.
5) Do feel Peace that surpasses all understanding.
6) Do spend much time worshipping Him for all He has done for me and reflecting upon eternal life with Him in paradise.
7) Do sing very loud about Christ with my entire soul
8) Do thinking about all He has given you right now, during many moments.
9) Do think of the very little we give compared to what He has lovingly given.
10) Do think about what He wants is me- all of me.

How does that affect your mission?

Jane_Doe said:

And what if I currently (without your involvement):
1) Don't give countless hours of labor to my church
2) Do think about what Christ really wants from us (or me in particular).
3) Do think of my love for Him and relationship with Him (current state and deepening it).
4) Do Pray and have quiet time to just cast your cares upon Him, and do feel the rest He promises us when we put our faith in Him.
5) Do feel Peace that surpasses all understanding.
6) Do spend much time worshipping Him for all He has done for me and reflecting upon eternal life with Him in paradise.
7) Do sing very loud about Christ with my entire soul
8) Do thinking about all He has given you right now, during many moments.
9) Do think of the very little we give compared to what He has lovingly given.
10) Do think about what He wants is me- all of me.

How does that affect your mission?

Click to expand...

Well I'm glad to hear that.

God is the judge, I just speak His Word. Your relationship is with Him.

ToBeLoved said:

Well I'm glad to hear that.

Click to expand...

Do you wish to continue on your quest then? (ok.. that's a weird way of asking but I can't think of any one better)

Jane_Doe said:

Do you wish to continue on your quest then? (ok.. that's a weird way of asking but I can't think of any one better)

Click to expand...

I try to continue on that quest each day.

I think we should get back on topic.

mmksparbud said:

Are you saying that when your priests lay hands and they impart the Holy Spirit, that person can not grieve the Holy Spirit away?? Please state the verse that says God gives the Holy Spirit temporarily.

Click to expand...

Still waiting!!!

Does mormonism teach that having "12 apostles", with 2 counselors and one "prophet" (technically making a total of 15 as they are also considered "apostles"), is one of the marks of a true church? Yes.

UNDER THE DIRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST, the Church is led by 15 apostles, who are also regarded as prophets, seers, and revelators. The man who has been an apostle the longest is the President of the Church, and by inspiration he selects two other apostles as counselors. These three function as the First Presidency, which is the highest governing body of the Church. (For information on the other 12 apostles, see Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, which is the second-highest governing body of the Church.)
lds.org


Does mormonism believe the bible to be the Word of God, but only if its "translated correctly"? Yes.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
Articles of Faith
lds.org


Does mormonism believe there was an "apostasy" within early Christianity, despite the Lord promising to keep His Bride, the Church, safe from the very gates of hell? Yes.

When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel.


Does LDS mormonism preach polygamy (and the FLDS, etc.) is "God's will", and that its practiced in a third heaven among those exalted to godhood only? Yes.



"When I was 66, my wife June died of cancer. Two years later--a year
and a half ago--I married Kristen McMain, the eternal companion who
now stands at my side. Now, single sisters, I have an expert witness to invite to the stand
at this time. It is my wife, Kristen, who, as an adult, was single for
about 35 years before we married."
Apostle Dallin Oaks, speaking at a BYU devotional, Jan 29, 2002


In April 2006, Church Apostle Russell M. Nelson married for a second time. His first wife had passed away the previous year. Both his first and second marriage were “solemnized” in an LDS Temple ceremony.


Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth president of the church (1970-1972) married Louise E. Shurtleff in 1898. She died in 1908. In 1908 he married Ethel G. Reynolds, who died in 1937. In 1938 he married Jessie Evans, who died in 1971. He was sealed "for eternity" to each of those women. Now, paraphrasing what the Pharisees asked Jesus: Which woman will be Smith's wife in the celestial kingdom? According to Mormon doctrine, ALL THREE will be his wives. Smith confirmed "...my wives will be mine in eternity.” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 2, pg 67.)

There are several others.



Does LDS mormonism believe that black people were once known as marked with a curse because they were "unvaliant" by "remaining neutral" in some mythical, biblically unsupported war between Jesus and Lucifer over which would plan would rule the earth? Yes.

True.

Does LDS mormonism practice baptism for the dead? Yes.

True.

Does LDS mormonism teach that Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT? Yes.

True.


Does LDS mormonism teach that God the Father still has a physical body of flesh and bones? Yes.

True.

Does LDS mormonism believe that there are three hierarchical heavens, with each having a multitude of levels within them? Yes.

The celestial kingdom has three levels. To my knowledge, the terrestrial and telestial don’t.

Does LDS mormonism teach that only "sons of perdition", i.e., those who reject belief that JS is "God's prophet" and therefore have "given themselves over to Satan" along with the few truly wicked go? Yes.

Requires a long answer; I’ll address this separately.


Does LDS mormonism preach that one must be married on earth and produce children as one of the requirements of becoming a god? Yes.

Yes and No. If it isn’t possible, they claim that someone can do it during the Millennium, but there’s no scripture to back this up.


Does LDS mormonism say that Michael the Archangel is the same person called Adam in the Garden of Eden? Yes.

Joseph Smith said, “Christ is the Great High Priest; Adam next” (Teachings, pp. 157–58).
Joseph Smith also clearly identified both Adam and Michael as one and the same person, an angel, the chief angel, or archangel, of heaven, the special servant of God and Christ.


Does LDS mormonism preach that all will be saved in some "unconditional" salvation, and those who fail to perform a laundry list of "ordinances" not listed in the bible anywhere are able to be "exalted", which essentially nullifies Jesus Christ's sacrifice? Yes.

I will address this separately.

Does LDS mormonism teach that Jesus paid for sin in the Garden of Gethsemane? Yes.

True.

Does LDS mormonism teach that women are dependent upon their husbands "in good standing" to call them from the grave, or they will lie there until he does? Yes.

Not exactly. Another priest can call her forth as a servant.

ToBeLoved said:

Well I'm glad to hear that.

God is the judge, I just speak His Word. Your relationship is with Him.

Click to expand...

How do you know you are understanding his word correctly and are representing to others as he wants you to?

fatboys said:

How do you know you are understanding his word correctly and are representing to others as he wants you to?

Click to expand...

She finds truth in:

Phoebe Ann said:

She finds truth in:

Click to expand...

Reading the Bible brings me to much different conclusions than you espouse here.

Jane_Doe said:

Reading the Bible brings me to much different conclusions than you espouse here.

Click to expand...

Well, I guess God allows differences here on earth. According to the Bible, many people don't have the Holy Spirit.

I think Mormons really do need to see the light statistically. If they were God's true church, God would have been in this and there would be way more than 4.5 million active believers. The fact that there has been a mass exodus in the last 35 years should be telling them something.

The fact that they are not converting established Christians in droves, shows me that the Holy Spirit is not guiding Christians towards this religion. Christians are easily holding their ground because Mormonism looks nothing like Christianity so we easily see that it is not for us.

I think this should all be eye opening. Looking at growth in Mormonism is pretty much because of all the children earlier generations had and the fact that Mormons in Utah were pretty much left alone for quite a long time.

If a religion has to count on their own children for building their stats, then is it really realistic of what's going on in the faith?

Because Mormonism cannot convert strong Christians is to me proof that the entire idea of apostasy is a myth. Also, the way they control their members is telling to me. When you have to isolate your people, that is a huge red flag.

ToBeLoved said:

Try not to mix up priesthoods.

Melchezedek priesthood
Aaronic priesthood
Levitical priesthood

Know that ALL of these are OT priesthoods.

That we are all individually and collectively a priesthood, think about that. Why would that be?

I don't think you have any idea what's the difference in the above priesthoods or that we are now part of the priesthood with Christ as the High Priest.

You need to build upon concepts. That's how Christianity is.

So you tell me why these three are different?
What changed that OT priesthoods are no longer valid?
Why is each person part of Christ's royal priesthood now, but not then?

Answer these questions and I'll answer any other questions about this that you have.

Click to expand...

You say:
Know that ALL of these are OT priesthoods.

You know that is not true, because Jesus was a priest and an High Priest of the Melchisedec priesthood as recorded in the NT. So it is Jesus himself that bridged the Melchisedec priesthood from the OT to the NT and it is the Melchisedec priesthood that is referred to when Peter tells us we are a "royal priesthood". It is the royal priesthood because it is the priesthood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, he is the great High Priest of our priesthood.

You say: So you tell me why these three are different?

This could be a book, but I will try to condense it to a few paragraphs.
We start with the Melchisedec priesthood. It has been around since Adam and all the patriarchs of the early OT held the MP. In their day and up until Melchisedec, it was known as "The Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God." Melchisedec was a High Priest of god after this order of the priesthood and he was also the king of a region of the country called Salem, (which we think is exactly where Jeru"salem" is located). Because of his extreme righteousness and bringing such righteousness and prosperity to his people, the Lord changed the name of the priesthood to Melchisedec in honor of this great man.

Melchisedec held this priesthood, Abraham received it from him, Isaac rec. it from Abraham, Jacob rec. from Isaac, Joseph rec. from Jacob. Moses had the Melchisedec priesthood, which means that whoever held this priesthood could officiate in all of the high ordinances and govern the church of God as it expanded and grew.

When Moses went to the mountain and obtained the Words of God, the children of Israel revolted against God. God said at that time, he would destroy everyone, but Moses talked him out of that process, and so the Aaronic priesthhod was born. The children of Israel would be governed by a lesser priesthood until they could be taught the righteousness of the greater priesthood. The lesser priesthood came with a lesser law, called the Law of Moses, with myriads of feasts and sabbaths, and signs, and sacrifices, etc. until the children learned slowly about Christ.

Aaron and his sons officiated over the lesser Aaronic priesthood. The Levitical priesthood was set up under the AP to actually do all the work of the sacrifice, to be done by the men of the Tribe of Levi. They set up hundreds of order of priests of the Levitical priesthood
in order that the daily sacrifices could be done. Thousands of oxen and sheep and doves and other animals had to be killed and cleaned and sacrificed and cleaned up, it took thousands of priests to handle this job. That is what the Levitical priesthood did.
So the AP officiated and governed the proceedings of the lesser AP, the LP was set up to assist the High Priest of the AP, and did all the work of the sacrifices etc.

So when Jesus came, all priesthood rights were centered in the AP and the LP, and all rights and power was in these priesthoods. Nobody did anything of a religious, priestly nature without being of the AP or LP.

Jesus was of the tribe of Judah, and not Levi, so why should anyone listen to him? It is because he spoke with authority and because he had the higher priesthood, the MP, which has the right to officiate is all the affairs of God and man.

You say: What changed that OT priesthoods are no longer valid?

When the law of Moses was done away, it did away with the AP and LP and when the new covenant or new law or new testament was set in order by Jesus it necessitated a change in the priesthood. The higher MP was again activated through Jesus Christ and a new day dawned on the world.

You say: Why is each person part of Christ's royal priesthood now, but not then?

The children of Israel showed by their actions (see history in the OT) that they were not worthy to hold the priesthoods.

It was the hope of Jesus that by expanding the MP that all members would step up and literally be priests unto the Lord. An holy nation, a peculiar people, a royal priesthood.
This did not happen, most members were not willing to hold the priesthood and decided eventually that the bishops and elders, and all the other officers could take care of the religious events. So there was a religious class that eventually took over and all the other people were called lay persons, not holding any priesthood, and not wanting to.
And so today, you have the pastors that pretty much do all the teaching and organizing and council and guide etc. But most members let them do most of the work and hold no priesthood. In the Mormon church all worthy men are ordained to the priesthood. Some are valiant and active, some are not. But all can have priesthood authority.

ToBeLoved said:

I think Mormons really do need to see the light statistically. If they were God's true church, God would have been in this and there would be way more than 4.5 million active believers. The fact that there has been a mass exodus in the last 35 years should be telling them something.

The fact that they are not converting established Christians in droves, shows me that the Holy Spirit is not guiding Christians towards this religion. Christians are easily holding their ground because Mormonism looks nothing like Christianity so we easily see that it is not for us.

I think this should all be eye opening. Looking at growth in Mormonism is pretty much because of all the children earlier generations had and the fact that Mormons in Utah were pretty much left alone for quite a long time.

If a religion has to count on their own children for building their stats, then is it really realistic of what's going on in the faith?

Because Mormonism cannot convert strong Christians is to me proof that the entire idea of apostasy is a myth. Also, the way they control their members is telling to me. When you have to isolate your people, that is a huge red flag.

Click to expand...

When "Christainity" started to grow and gained the power of an empire and it begin to grow through conquering civilizations do you think that would be an advantage? Wouldn't that send up a red flag?

Peter1000 said:

You say:
Know that ALL of these are OT priesthoods.

You know that is not true, because Jesus was a priest and an High Priest of the Melchisedec priesthood as recorded in the NT. So it is Jesus himself that bridged the Melchisedec priesthood from the OT to the NT and it is the Melchisedec priesthood that is referred to when Peter tells us we are a "royal priesthood". It is the royal priesthood because it is the priesthood of our Lord, Jesus Christ, he is the great High Priest of our priesthood.

Click to expand...

How can Jesus have built a transition for the Melchezedek priesthood when their were only two members of it? It is never mentioned by Christ. Christ doesn't say that you are a royal Melchezedek priesthood. No. No. No.

So show me where there are specifics about this priesthood?

fatboys said:

When "Christainity" started to grow and gained the power of an empire and it begin to grow through conquering civilizations do you think that would be an advantage? Wouldn't that send up a red flag?

Click to expand...

What civilizations did Christianity conquer? You make it sound like a civilization. WHAT?

Peter1000 said:

We start with the Melchisedec priesthood. It has been around since Adam and all the patriarchs of the early OT held the MP. In their day and up until Melchisedec, it was known as "The Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God." Melchisedec was a High Priest of god after this order of the priesthood and he was also the king of a region of the country called Salem, (which we think is exactly where Jeru"salem" is located). Because of his extreme righteousness and bringing such righteousness and prosperity to his people, the Lord changed the name of the priesthood to Melchisedec in honor of this great man.

Melchisedec held this priesthood, Abraham received it from him, Isaac rec. it from Abraham, Jacob rec. from Isaac, Joseph rec. from Jacob. Moses had the Melchisedec priesthood, which means that whoever held this priesthood could officiate in all of the high ordinances and govern the church of God as it expanded and grew.

Click to expand...

Can you show that all these people held this priesthood with scripture?

They didn't. Abraham paid tithes to Melchezedek, he did not get the priesthood.

Come on, you knew I would ask for scriptural support, I always do

I'll just stop here until the above three questions are responded to.

Jane_Doe said:

Reading the Bible brings me to much different conclusions than you espouse here.

Click to expand...

I believe that is because you mix texts. If it was just the Bible, I think you would see things differently.

ToBeLoved said:

I believe that is because you mix texts. If it was just the Bible, I think you would see things differently.

Click to expand...

Maybe but Christianity does not show consistency in understanding the bible