LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

He is the way · Sep 4, 2020

Leaf473 said:
great passage, and lots of great stuff we could talk about in it!

but what I feel led to focus on is
"But let a man examine himself..."

does it work that way for my LDS friends? everyone examines him/herself and decides if they can visit the temple?

or do they try to impress someone in authority who then signs the papers, in some sense?

Usually when someone has a desire to attend the temple they take the temple classes. They start to prepare themselves to be worthy to attend the temple. If they have sins that they need to repent of it may take some time before they become worthy to attend the temple. We declare our own worthiness to the bishop or one of his counselors and a member of the stake presidency. As I mentioned ordinances should not be performed unworthily, nor should the priesthood of God be used unrighteously.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

Hrairoo said:
That's what going to the temple is for. The first time a member goes, they can get their endowments and anointing done. All other times a Mormon goes to the temple is to do the endowments and baptisms for the dead. They believe that they can represent the dead person so that deceased person's work is done.

So, if you have children or a relative who is LDS, after you die, they can take your name to the temple and act as proxy to have you baptized into the Mormon church and they can get your endowment done for you. The LDS believe that those who were not Mormon in this life, when they die, they go to a holding cell in spirit prison. There, dead Mormons act as missionaries to come give the imprisoned spirits the LDS lessons just the same as they would on earth. The dead spirit has the choice to believe or reject the doctrine. The baptisms and endowments done for the dead are conditional upon the dead spirit accepting the Mormon gospel.

If you believe in it, it sounds like a good safety net for any souls that might fall through the cracks. If you don't believe in it, it sounds like a lot of busy work to distract people from asking questions about why they pay so much to the church. To build the Lord's temples of course! Why temples? For those who didn't get a chance while alive, of course! Now go find all those dead unbelievers and stop asking about opulent castles and paid prophets.

I see. and based on earlier stuff you wrote, it sounds like endowments and anointing are a necessary step towards obtaining eternal life.

the temple recommend necessary for getting these things, is it an actual piece of paper?

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

He is the way said:
Usually when someone has a desire to attend the temple they take the temple classes. They start to prepare themselves to be worthy to attend the temple. If they have sins that they need to repent of it may take some time before they become worthy to attend the temple. We declare our own worthiness to the bishop or one of his counselors and a member of the stake presidency. As I mentioned ordinances should not be performed unworthily, nor should the priesthood of God be used unrighteously.

is it just a matter of saying to the bishop or whoever is going to issue the temple recommend
"I did all the right stuff"
and they hand you the recommend?

if so, why is the bishop involved?
they must be busy,
wouldn't it make more sense to make an appointment at the temple and when you arrive say to the person at the door that you did all the right stuff?

Hrairoo · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
I see. and based on earlier stuff you wrote, it sounds like endowments and anointing are a necessary step towards obtaining eternal life.

the temple recommend necessary for getting these things, is it an actual piece of paper?

Yes, that is correct. According to the Mormons.

And yes, it is a little card sized piece of paper. You present this at the door of any temple and they scan the number to confirm.

Hrairoo · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
is it just a matter of saying to the bishop or whoever is going to issue the temple recommend
"I did all the right stuff"
and they hand you the recommend?

if so, why is the bishop involved?
they must be busy,
wouldn't it make more sense to make an appointment at the temple and when you arrive say to the person at the door that you did all the right stuff?

It has to do with 1. Priesthood authority and 2. Whoever has you in their flock. A Bishop is the authority and spiritual leader for your area/ward. He would know you best. Part of the temple recommend questions include tithing and regular church attendance. Your Bishop is the one sitting on the stand every Sunday and would see you there. The tithing you hand in to him. You would not be able to just go to any LDS ward and get an interview or hand in your tithing. They would look up where you live and where you're supposed to go, who is the leader of that ward.

The Mormon cult says they work with discernment of the Spirit to know whether you're worthy and whether you're being truthful. But in actuality, there is a lot of control by the leaders over your life and you feel a lot of guilt being a member of the LDS church. So, the combination of these two things working together, enable the leaders to give these recommends. Because "no unclean thing can enter the house of the Lord." If they actually had discernment given by the Holy Ghost or if the priesthood was really as powerful as they say it is( because not just anybody can be a bishop; they call worthy men to positions of power, so, he should be very close to God and the Spirit) then sure, you could just go to the temple doors and either be admitted or turned away. But no, they rely entirely on surveillance and your own conscience being willing to own up to anything you've failed to do or any sins you haven't repented of.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

Hrairoo said:
Yes, that is correct. According to the Mormons.

And yes, it is a little card sized piece of paper. You present this at the door of any temple and they scan the number to confirm.

and wow again.

you might have answered this before, but does it have to have both fields signed,
as in a "member of the bishopric..."
and a "member of the stake presidency..." ?

either way, it kind of looks like a driver's license.
but I see that it doesn't even belong to the individual, but remains the property of the church and must be surrendered on demand.

well, speaking only for myself of course, I much prefer Paul's approach in the letter we call Romans
"the free gift of God is eternal life".

Hrairoo · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
you might have answered this before, but does it have to have both fields signed,
as in a "member of the bishopric..."
and a "member of the stake presidency..." ?

either way, it kind of looks like a driver's license.
but I see that it doesn't even belong to the individual, but remains the property of the church and must be surrendered on demand.

Yes. Both fields have to be signed. Wards and branches all belong to stakes which encompass a larger area(so, a ward and Bishop would be for a particular area, and the Bishop answers to the Stake President of that area; the stake looks after several wards within the area it has authority over; like, Bishop would be a Mayor and Stake President would be the Governor, except smaller scale). So, it's like the final say. You briefly meet with the Stake President after the Bishop interview and he signs it. Usually merely based on the fact that the Bishop has already vouched for you. I suppose if the Spirit didn't alert the Bishop to any uncleanliness in you, it would send an alert to he SP when he meets with you and urge him not to sign it. I don't know of any situation where that has ever occurred.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

Hrairoo said:
It has to do with 1. Priesthood authority and 2. Whoever has you in their flock. A Bishop is the authority and spiritual leader for your area/ward. He would know you best. Part of the temple recommend questions include tithing and regular church attendance. Your Bishop is the one sitting on the stand every Sunday and would see you there. The tithing you hand in to him. You would not be able to just go to any LDS ward and get an interview or hand in your tithing. They would look up where you live and where you're supposed to go, who is the leader of that ward.

The Mormon cult says they work with discernment of the Spirit to know whether you're worthy and whether you're being truthful. But in actuality, there is a lot of control by the leaders over your life and you feel a lot of guilt being a member of the LDS church. So, the combination of these two things working together, enable the leaders to give these recommends. Because "no unclean thing can enter the house of the Lord." If they actually had discernment given by the Holy Ghost or if the priesthood was really as powerful as they say it is( because not just anybody can be a bishop; they call worthy men to positions of power, so, he should be very close to God and the Spirit) then sure, you could just go to the temple doors and either be admitted or turned away. But no, they rely entirely on surveillance and your own conscience being willing to own up to anything you've failed to do or any sins you haven't repented of.

so... an LDS has to get the recommend from the local Bishop (or similar authority) who can see who is regularly attending and also no doubt hears things through the grapevine, good and bad.

when you say hand the tithing into the bishop, do you mean again an actual piece of paper such as the check you were using to pay the tithe or a record that you've kept of your tithing?

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

Hrairoo said:
Yes. Both fields have to be signed. Wards and branches all belong to stakes which encompass a larger area(so, a ward and Bishop would be for a particular area, and the Bishop answers to the Stake President of that area; the stake looks after several wards within the area it has authority over; like, Bishop would be a Mayor and Stake President would be the Governor, except smaller scale). So, it's like the final say. You briefly meet with the Stake President after the Bishop interview and he signs it. Usually merely based on the fact that the Bishop has already vouched for you. I suppose if the Spirit didn't alert the Bishop to any uncleanliness in you, it would send an alert to he SP when he meets with you and urge him not to sign it. I don't know of any situation where that has ever occurred.

so in LDS teaching, an LDS person needs the approval of these two people to get eternal life.

though on the bright side, the stake president virtually always rubber stamps with the bishop has said.

Hrairoo · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
so... an LDS has to get the recommend from the local Bishop (or similar authority) who can see who is regularly attending and also no doubt hears things through the grapevine, good and bad.

when you say hand the tithing into the bishop, do you mean again and actual piece of paper such as the check you were using to pay the tithe or a record that you've kept of your tithing?

Exactly.

And yes. There is a little box on the wall right beside the Bishop's office in the ward building(where an LDS will go to church and Sunday School, etc.). It has these little slips and you can take as many as you want. You fill them out, tear off the top white sheet(it has a yellow copy underneath for you to put in your records) and you tuck it and your money into an envelope and hand it to the Bishop on Sunday. Nobody else is allowed to take it. Not the clerk or any of the Bishop's Counselors(he has a first and second counselor, always).

Hrairoo · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
so in LDS teaching, an LDS person needs the approval of these two people to get eternal life.

though on the bright side, the stake president virtually always rubber stamps with the bishop has said.

That is correct. As I said, if you believe in the church, it feels like all these worthy men are doing God's work and looking after their flocks. If you don't believe in it, it feels like an organization of surveillance. In Mormon culture, you want to go to the temple, frequently. Meeting with the Bishop is not a dreaded activity, it is a way to show how much work you have done, to get validation that it has been worth it, that you are pure enough to enter God's house. You desperately want to be good and to be pure. It takes a lot of work and a lot of money to earn Jesus Christ's gift and to earn your way into God's presence for eternity.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

Hrairoo said:
Exactly.

And yes. There is a little box on the wall right beside the Bishop's office in the ward building(where an LDS will go to church and Sunday School, etc.). It has these little slips and you can take as many as you want. You fill them out, tear off the top white sheet(it has a yellow copy underneath for you to put in your records) and you tuck it and your money into an envelope and hand it to the Bishop on Sunday. Nobody else is allowed to take it. Not the clerk or any of the Bishop's Counselors(he has a first and second counselor, always).

so... another piece of paper.

is the tithing 10%?
I'm thinking of a person puts in $100 a month, that would imply earnings of $1,000 a month or $12,000 a year.

if the bishop can see from the person's lifestyle, or knows based on the kind of job they have that they must be earning more than 12K,
then eyebrows are raised,
I imagine.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

Hrairoo said:
It takes a lot of work and a lot of money to earn Jesus Christ's gift and to earn your way into God's presence for eternity.

I think that basically says it all right there.

I don't know where you're at spiritually (I believe you wrote earlier that you were no longer LDS), but for me, I like the way Paul describes it
4When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.
Romans 4 NLT

He is the way · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
is it just a matter of saying to the bishop or whoever is going to issue the temple recommend
"I did all the right stuff"
and they hand you the recommend?

if so, why is the bishop involved?
they must be busy,
wouldn't it make more sense to make an appointment at the temple and when you arrive say to the person at the door that you did all the right stuff?

It is much easier to do things the way they are done. The temple, in my temple district, usually has over 3,000 workers when it was open. There is not room or enough workers to interview people for temple recommends in the temples. It is enough to just take care of everything going on at the temple when it is open. That being said most of the temples are closed due to the pandemic or are on limited operations.

He is the way · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
I think that basically says it all right there.

I don't know where you're at spiritually (I believe you wrote earlier that you were no longer LDS), but for me, I like the way Paul describes it
4When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.
Romans 4 NLT

It is important to pay tithes and offerings to God to build up the kingdom of God on earth:

(Old Testament | Malachi 3:6 - 10)

6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

mmksparbud · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
so... another piece of paper.

is the tithing 10%?
I'm thinking of a person puts in $100 a month, that would imply earnings of $1,000 a month or $12,000 a year.

if the bishop can see from the person's lifestyle, or knows based on the kind of job they have that they must be earning more than 12K,
then eyebrows are raised,
I imagine.

I had a Mormon brother in law---for a very short time. One day a bishop came knocking on his door, demanding to know why he was not paying his proper tithe. That was the final straw. he threw the guy out and left the church that day. They guy had a copy of his pay check! He had been thinking about leaving virtually from the day he joined!
But I must add that we believe in paying tithe---but there is no tithe police! It is up to us. For years I didn't, now, I always do. I do much better financially paying my tithe.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

He is the way said:
It is much easier to do things the way they are done. The temple, in my temple district, usually has over 3,000 workers when it was open. There is not room or enough workers to interview people for temple recommends in the temples. It is enough to just take care of everything going on at the temple when it is open. That being said most of the temples are closed due to the pandemic or are on limited operations.

I'm not being flippant here, I'm interested in how these things work.

if it's just a matter of declaring your own worthiness,
it seems like it would take less time to arrive for your time slot,
say, "I'm worthy to enter",
and that's it.

that would actually take less time than examining a temple recommend card, I think.

Hrairoo · Sep 6, 2020

Leaf473 said:
I think that basically says it all right there.

I don't know where you're at spiritually (I believe you wrote earlier that you were no longer LDS), but for me, I like the way Paul describes it
4When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned.
Romans 4 NLT

I am reading the New Testament in a regular KJV(not an LDS issued one) and trying to reclaim my connection to my Saviour. In the meantime, I'm researching LDS church history trying to figure out what happened to me and why that "church" is the way that it is.

But as you said before, yes, the bishop watching over you is there to keep you honest. I believe it is 10% of your gross income. You can use the slips whenever you want. I used to deposit right after every payday.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

He is the way said:
It is important to pay tithes and offerings to God to build up the kingdom of God on earth:

(Old Testament | Malachi 3:6 - 10)

6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I agree that it is good to financially support God's work.

I think giving money to God can be done informally,
such as giving money to a homeless person,
just as well as formally,
such as giving money to an institution.

as I see it, giving money is a good work that a person may do
because
they have received eternal life,

not
in order to obtain
eternal life.

Leaf473 · Sep 6, 2020

mmksparbud said:
I had a Mormon brother in law---for a very short time. One day a bishop came knocking on his door, demanding to know why he was not paying his proper tithe. That was the final straw. he threw the guy out and left the church that day. They guy had a copy of his pay check! He had been thinking about leaving virtually from the day he joined!
But I must add that we believe in paying tithe---but there is no tithe police! It is up to us. For years I didn't, now, I always do. I do much better financially paying my tithe.

a copy of his paycheck, you say?

that does sound like surveillance.

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