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Why not?---you say that we can, no difference. It is the same breath of life that is given to man and is given to animals. Did God put the billions and trillions of animals in the garden with Adam and Eve---no more than He 0put the billions and trillions of people that ever lived in the garden with Adam and Eve.
Your theories do not hold any truth to them. The defining thing about a God is that they have lived forever. No human ever has and certainly no animal ever has. JS theories have never made any sense.
Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Job_33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Yes, we believe in hell. But in the scriptures hell is represented 2 ways. One hell is temporary, while the other hell is eternal.Do you believe in Hell?
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 28:20 - 22)
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none—and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.
You say, "the ones He created reproduced". That is not what the scripture says. The scripture says And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth. So not just those that would reproduce, but every living creature that moveth. IOW He created them all on the 6th day.Peter: "Yes, we believe that God created everything spiritual before it was naturally upon the earth, even whales and worms."
Peter: "Did God not create every living creature like it says, or did God actually create all living creatures spiritually, and then as their time came to come to earth, their spiritual bodies were transferred to their mortal bodies?"
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was
made that has been made
John 1:1-3 NIV
John says that Jesus Christ was with God in the beginning, before anything else existed. It doesn't say anything about the souls of men and women being there with them, or even intelligences, whatever they are, that souls are made of. It certainly says nothing about souls of animals being pre-existent. On the contrary, it says about Jesus: "... without him nothing was made".
Peter: "So on day six, God created every living creature that moveth. So lets analyze that. A whale can live lets say up to 50 years, I don't know for sure, but lets say 50. If every whale that was created in verse 12, lived on earth for the first 50 years of earth life, there would be no whales today. Right? Every living whale was created, and put on the earth on the 6th day, and then lived for about 50 years and died, why do we still see whales today, 5500 years after the creation."
I'm not a creationist, but that's an easy one. Your problem here is that you over look the fact that animals reproduce. When God created whales, the ones He created reproduced, so there are still whales around today. The obvious meaning is that God created every species, not every individual animal.
Are you serious. You are going to set your beliefs partly on a very respectable British newspaper. Well, good luck. I will stick with the scholars of yeterday and today from the KJV before I will go with a writer from a newspaper. No thanks.I have criticized the KJV on numerous occasions. It is the worst translation in common use today. In some cases the translators are mistaken, in other cases archaic language misleads people not familiar with it. The KJV does emphasize the supernatural. I don't mean the supernatural power of God, which is a Christian belief, but supernatural events in our world. I don't blame people for using the KJV when it was the only translation they had but it is time to move on.
Peter, you start from the assumption that the KJV is at least as good as modern translations. This isn't the case. You didn't take the alternate translations I offered seriously.
Take a look at this quote from a 2015 article in The Guardian, a very respectable British newspaper. This article considers "gave up the ghost" to be no better than a typo, a typographical error. All the KJV verses that say "gave up the ghost" can be accurately rendered as "breathed his last." "Gave up the ghost" isn't accurate.
The 10 worst typos in the Bible
David Shariatmadari
Quote
‘Holy ghost’
This tricky word illustrates some of the pitfalls of biblical translation. The Greek word pneuma means breath or spirit (think ‘pneumatic’), but in the King James version it is mistranslated as “ghost” (although one sense of “ghost” is of course spirit, it was used to mean “supernatural being” from as early as the 14th century, and would have been an appropriate translation for the Greek word phantasma). Not only does this make the concept of the holy spirit a bit confusing. It also gives us the bizarre phrase “he gave up the ghost” (Luke 23:46) which would be better translated as “he breathed his last”.
End Quote
The 10 worst typos in the Bible
[/QUOTE]We believe the breath of life refers to the spirit, our eternal spirit. We have talked about this often and it will do no good to hash it again. So this is what we believe, and we will just have to agree to disagree.
You say, "the ones He created reproduced". That is not what the scripture says. The scripture says And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth. So not just those that would reproduce, but every living creature that moveth. IOW He created them all on the 6th day.
But notice that this creation happened in the first chapter of Genesis. And this creation was done by God (God the Father).
Now notice that there is another creation account in the second chapter of Genesis and this creation was done by The Lord God (Jesus, the Son of God).
We believe that God created all things spiritually in the 1st chapter of Genesis, and that Jesus, the Lord God created all the natural producers in the 2nd chapter of Genesis.
We do not believe this, so again, stop putting things out there about us that is not true. God puts a living spirit into a created, but dead whale or worm or human. When the living, eternal spirit enters the body of the whale, worm, or human, that entities comes alive. When the spirit leaves the entity, it dies.You want to believe that God put His Spirit into whales and worms that were already living as some sort of spirit--that's your choice.
Yes, we believe that God created everything spiritual before it was naturally upon the earth, even whales and worms.
We do not believe this, so again, stop putting things out there about us that is not true. God puts a living spirit into a created, but dead whale or worm or human. When the living, eternal spirit enters the body of the whale, worm, or human, that entities comes alive. When the spirit leaves the entity, it dies.
You say, "the ones He created reproduced". That is not what the scripture says. The scripture says And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth. So not just those that would reproduce, but every living creature that moveth. IOW He created them all on the 6th day.
But notice that this creation happened in the first chapter of Genesis. And this creation was done by God (God the Father).
Now notice that there is another creation account in the second chapter of Genesis and this creation was done by The Lord God (Jesus, the Son of God).
We believe that God created all things spiritually in the 1st chapter of Genesis, and that Jesus, the Lord God created all the natural producers in the 2nd chapter of Genesis.
Are you serious. You are going to set your beliefs partly on a very respectable British newspaper. Well, good luck. I will stick with the scholars of yeterday and today from the KJV before I will go with a writer from a newspaper. No thanks.
I asked the question to find out where you stood as to your beliefs of the Bible. I know there are those who do not believe in Hell. I find it interesting that people like to tell us what we believe. I believe it is more appropriate for members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints to state what we believe. As a member i know that we do indeed believe in Hell:
(Guide to the Scriptures | H Hell.:Entry)
HELL. See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Sons of Perdition
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).
Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found "filthy still" (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).
The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.
David's soul shall not be left in hell, Ps. 16:10 (Ps. 86:13). Go into hell, into that fire that never shall be quenched, Mark 9:43 (Mosiah 2:38). The rich man in hell lifts up his eyes, being in torment, Luke 16:22–23 (D&C 104:18). Death and hell delivered up the dead, Rev. 20:13. There is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell, 1 Ne. 15:35. The will of the flesh giveth the spirit of the devil power to bring us down to hell, 2 Ne. 2:29. Christ prepared the way for our deliverance from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9:10–12. Those who remain filthy go into everlasting torment, 2 Ne. 9:16. The devil cheateth their souls and leadeth them away carefully down to hell, 2 Ne. 28:21. Jesus hath redeemed my soul from hell, 2 Ne. 33:6. Loose yourselves from the pains of hell, Jacob 3:11. To be taken captive by the devil and led by his will to destruction are the chains of hell, Alma 12:11. The wicked are cast into outer darkness until the time of their resurrection, Alma 40:13–14. The filthy would be more miserable to dwell with God than to dwell in hell, Morm. 9:4. The punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, D&C 19:10–12. Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels, D&C 29:37–38. Those who acknowledge God are delivered from death and the chains of hell, D&C 138:23.
There are three heavens:
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 4)
1 IT is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knowethsuch an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
So how will we be resurrected?:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:35 - 51)
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
My mistake. I did not realize that she is a member. That being said she later writes:HeIsTheWay: "I believe it is more appropriate for members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints to state what we believe."
I quoted a Mormon in post #239. You ignored everything in the quote.
Jesus described Hell this way:
(New Testament | Luke 16:22 - 26)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
You are right, you have it so screwed up, so I will not say another word on this subject with you.So, you are saying that there were whales and worms---just spiritually up there before they were created on earth? And spiritually means they were not alive yet---so there were millions of dead whales and worms and every other creatures up there along with billions of humans not yet created all up there dead, along with billions of angels??? Seriously?? If they are living, they have to have the breath of God to give them life--otherwise they are just sculptures up there--Can you please say something that makes sense--cause none of this does. You have lifeless spirits--you will have to define what spirit means---because Jesus says God is spirit and you are saying every creature that was ever created was a spirit first which means everything is God???!!! Yet you seem to be sayin g that everything up there was dead--so yo0u have billions of dead stuff up there without life---until God creates a body for them? And what scriptures do you get that from? The more you explain, the more totally confusing and nonsensical it becomes!!
I will say it just one more time. When the eternal living spirit enters the created mortal body, that created mortal body comes to life. When the eternal living spirit leaves that created mortal body, that created mortal body dies. The eternal living spirit continues to live, and will never die.Peter1000 said: ↑
We do not believe this, so again, stop putting things out there about us that is not true. God puts a living spirit into a created, but dead whale or worm or human. When the living, eternal spirit enters the body of the whale, worm, or human, that entities comes alive. When the spirit leaves the entity, it dies.
OK--further more---when the spirit leaves the entity--it dies---and so we again have a dead spirit up there for you say that the sprits go back to heaven and the body here dies. Just an awful lot of dead spirits up there. How can they function and talk and so forth when they have no life for they have no breath from God to keep them alive---again---doesn't add up. And you say the spirit is eternal which again is a definition of God--they existed before being born and exist after they die--but they are dead---yet eternal?????????
I have emailed the KJV organization before. I cannot locate the email I used, but they did respond to me on another subject, so maybe try that before you let this subect go.There are no modern translations that agree with the KJV on this point.
You are playing games here. The Guardian reported accurately that a look at the Greek words proves that the KJV translators were mistaken on this point. Maybe we shouldn't blame them. Scholarship of New Testament Greek and Old Testament Hebrew has come a long way since the KJV was translated. The KJV does emphasize the supernatural and all the places where "gave up the ghost" appears is evidence of this. You mentioned "the scholars." If you would pay attention to what they say you'd know that "gave up the ghost" isn't in the original manuscripts.
My mistake. I did not realize that she is a member. That being said she later writes:
"And before I get Mormons telling me I’m wrong, there is one more sense of “hell” that Mormons believe in, a place that is called “Outer Darkness.” This is where the “sons of perdition” go**, those who have known Christ truly and have denied Him, as well as where Satan and his angels live who rejected Christ from the first. But within Mormonism, there is much debate about who might qualify for this place. I’ve heard both Cain and Judas are likely to be in Outer Darkness, but there is debate even there. There’s no agreed upon list of those who are going to Outer Darkness, a place that is simply described in Mormon theology by its lack of the presence of God, Christ, or even the Holy Spirit. Rather than be a place of fire and brimstone, it seems more likely this is a place of cold and darkness, and perhaps even silence."
I prefer the definition I posted as it is the definition given by the church leaders. As far as I can tell no two people believe exactly the same in all things. Jesus described Hell this way:
(New Testament | Luke 16:22 - 26)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
We believe Jesus also said:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 19:15 - 20)
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.
It seems like it is in complete disagreement of our doctrine. However, this parable was given by Jesus while he was living.Interesting that you post this passage in support of your position on hell, but completely disregard it when it comes to getting a 2nd chance in the afterlife. It is literally in complete disagreement with your doctrine. Selective Scripture much??
So you make up scripture after the fact to suit your beliefs? I wouldn't recommend that. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests the gulf has been bridged. You are believing false doctrine.It seems like it is in complete disagreement of our doctrine. However, this parable was given by Jesus while he was living.
When Jesus died on the cross his spirit went first to a place called paradise. Remember Jesus promised the thief that day he would be with him in paradise. Well, he made good on that promise. Both the spirit of Jesus and the spirit of the thief went to paradise. This is where Lazarus went when he died and was metaphorically found in the bosom of Abraham.
Then the scriptures say that Jesus went to the spirit prison, and preached unto the spirits in prison. This is where the rich man went, when he died.
The 2 places in this spirit world were separated by a large gulf.
We believe when Jesus went to preach unto the spirits in prison, that he opened the door of prison and bridged the large gulf, so that those that believed him, and repented and humbled themselves before him and confessed his name were allowed to go over the bridge and out of that prison into paradise, to learn more of the love that Jesus has for them and to receive their saving ordinances by proxy.
So at one time the option for the rich man to mingle with Lazarus was not available, but since the death of Jesus it has been available to all true and humble believers.
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