Joseph Prince interpretation of 1 John 1:9

lordsknight said:

So how about this passage:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Isn't this saying that our sin will not come before God anymore because His grace over abounds our sin?

It seems to me that I John 1:9 is referring to someone other than saved people because of the usage of the words "you" and "we" and what appears to be a hypothetical statement in verses 6-10.

I say that I have to lean towards Joseph Prince's analysis of this passage. I have been uplifted by his view of scriptures dealing with grace and righteousness. Still searching...

By His Amazing Grace!!!

Bro. Mike

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Welcome to our conversation Mike!

Peace...

I have an issue with JP. His theology is has a whole lot of extra man made ever changing philosophy mixed in.

I came to the same conclusion about 1 John 1:9 several years ago and we have discussed it in the open forum.
If you read the sevearl "ifs" that are listed in the chapter, you will find that the passage is mainly talking to believers who are in darkness and out of fellowship, but claim they have not sinned.
If you are a believer who is not in darkness (I pray you are not) and are in fellowhip (I pray that you are) then these words do not pertain to you. Being out of fellowship and in darkness is NOT the normal Christian life. The normal Christian life is to be in fellowship and in the light. That is you. IF you are in fellowship and in the light, then you are not in darkness, have not sinned, and have nothing to confess.

It all hinges on the several "Ifs" that are in the passage.

didaskalos said:

I came to the same conclusion about 1 John 1:9 several years ago and we have discussed it in the open forum.
If you read the sevearl "ifs" that are listed in the chapter, you will find that the passage is mainly talking to believers who are in darkness and out of fellowship, but claim they have not sinned.
If you are a believer who is not in darkness (I pray you are not) and are in fellowhip (I pray that you are) then these words do not pertain to you. Being out of fellowship and in darkness is NOT the normal Christian life. The normal Christian life is to be in fellowship and in the light. That is you. IF you are in fellowship and in the light, then you are not in darkness, have not sinned, and have nothing to confess.

It all hinges on the several "Ifs" that are in the passage.

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Thank you. This is a tad more clear and concise than some of the other rather rambling posts in this thread. I will read the chapter from this viewpoint and get back to you.

As I said, I am open to change my thinking, if I can be shown it in the scripture. In fact, I want to know more, and continue to renew my mind. Just need to see it for myself.

Peace...

I recall WoF teaching along the lines that 1John 1:9 restored us to fellowship with
God as opposed to the Cross establishing us in relationship.
The parallel is with a wayward son who leaves home - he is still a son( in relationship) but he is outside of fellowship (meaning not on speaking terms). Just like the son coming back home and saying "sorry " so it also is in God's family.
The whole idea of an unbeliever "confessing their sins" seems to have two problems
1) there may be two many to number
2) would you really know a lot about sin anyway
The other point that was made I recall is that "sins" are those things that we know are not pleasing to God whereas "unrighteousness" is all those things that we don't know are not pleasing to God

I think sometimes believers find themselves in an endless loop of doubt and faith because of the poor interpretation of 1 John. THey seem to think it is sayting that they are all sinners and need to confess and if they deny it then they are liars.
But then they confess and the Lord is faithful and just and forgives them so that they will be cleansed of all unrighteousness
But then if they say they have not sin they are liars so they confess and so on and so on and so on....
That interpretation, I think, is very confusing and out of context of the chapter... which is how to walk in the light and be in fellowship with the Father.

didaskalos said:

I think sometimes believers find themselves in an endless loop of doubt and faith because of the poor interpretation of 1 John. THey seem to think it is sayting that they are all sinners and need to confess and if they deny it then they are liars.
But then they confess and the Lord is faithful and just and forgives them so that they will be cleansed of all unrighteousness
But then if they say they have not sin they are liars so they confess and so on and so on and so on....
That interpretation, I think, is very confusing and out of contest of the chaper... which is how to walk in the light and be in fellowship with the Father.

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One of the problems is that most Christians read 1 John 1 and forget about the rest of the book.

Codify the following, for the Bible does not lie:

So which is it? (I'll give a clue; back up one verse in ch 3 and go forward one verse in ch 1; they both meet at the cross [1].)


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[1] Ch 1 v 9:"and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"
Ch 3 v 8b: "that He might destroy the works of the devil."

I guess I should have clarified that I have never heard the full version of what JP teaches. I just hold that 1 John 9 only pertains to believers who have actually sinned... not all believers. THe liars are those who are out of fellowship, are in darkness, and say that they did not get their by sinning.

How does The Lord's Prayer (Matt 6:9-15) compare to 1 John 1:9? One translation has ...forgive our sins for us...

I was prompted the other morning to turn on my Christian Television and lo and behold lol, there was Joseph Prince having an interview about this VERY TOPIC and scripture!!! What is amazing is that I haven't really had the time or the 'promptings' lately to turn it on!

And now the Lord has 'led me' to start reading a book that I have had in the 'to do list' called "Unmerited Favor" by you guessed it - Joseph Prince.

Worth noting that this is the scripture premise he gives for his book:

2 Peter 1:2 AMP "May grace (God’s favor) and peace (which is perfect well-being, all necessary good, all spiritual prosperity, and freedom from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts) be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."

ABlessedMan said:

Joseph Prince is a very good preacher. I have found that most of his teaching is right on target. His book 'Destined to Reign' is highly recommended.

Here is a link to his teaching on 1 John 1:9 ... What About 1 John 1:9? Understanding The Power Of Complete Forgiveness « Latest « JosephPrince.com :: Official site for Joseph Prince Resources

An audio only version of the message can be found here.

Haven't heard this from him in quite a while, thanks for bringing it up; I'll be listening to his message on this again.

But to my understanding, it isn't that the apostle is speaking to believers or non-believers so much as 1 John 1 is a reminder of where we came from. So to the believer it is a reminder that we were sinners. We are not to ever deny that. (To the unbeliever it is a proclamation that Jesus saves!!)

1 John 1 is a reminder of where we came from. 1 John 3 is a statement about where we are: (1 Jn 3:9 -- if you are born of God you cannot sin -- in other words, He doesn't see it because of Jesus' Blood).

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Joseph Prince is truly a godsend for much of what He has shared with the Body of Christ

As gifted as he may be, Mr. Prince's take on the earlier referenced scripture appears to be a real distortion of grace. I say this reverentially as he desires to serve the Lord.

I copied this from the website:

"Many believers are taught that whenever they sin, they must confess their sins to God in order to be cleansed and made righteous again. But is this teaching based on 1 John 1:9 for the believer?"

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The whole point of blood sacrifices was that when sin was committed, cleansing was available. In the NT, Jesus doesn't need to offer Himself up again, but the provision for the blood must be applied just like it had to be applied in the OT. It didn't matter that the sacrificial type/shadow was available or was killed, the blood had to be sprinkled on the mercy seat for cleansing to have occurred. When sin and defilement had occurred, the sacrificial offering had to be made. It wasn't a one time act. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrightousness.

We have a provision in Jesus' blood, but it must be applied. It is not carelessly given. You must turn to God in repentance to be forgiven. That is how you go back home righteous. "God be merciful to me a sinner!" Without it, people are just quoting scripture and their is no forgiveness.

God is ready to forgive. You remember Jesus told the one who sinned against you, "If he repents, forgive him." Although we forgive in our hearts for all wrongdoing, the big "IF" is there as far as the restoration of relationships.

What if you do not forgive? Your white robes become defiled and only the blood can cleanse. In the Book of Revelation, it is quite apparent that your robes as a believer can become spotted and that your name can be removed from the Book of Life.

I'm not trying to talk anyone of their salvation, but it is important to realize the importance of repentance when seeking forgiveness.

You're at it again I see...

Alive_Again said:

As gifted as he may be, Mr. Prince's take on the earlier referenced scripture appears to be a real distortion of grace. I say this reverentially as he desires to serve the Lord.

I copied this from the website:

The whole point of blood sacrifices was that when sin was committed, cleansing was available. In the NT, Jesus doesn't need to offer Himself up again, but the provision for the blood must be applied just like it had to be applied in the OT. It didn't matter that the sacrificial type/shadow was available or was killed, the blood had to be sprinkled on the mercy seat for cleansing to have occurred. When sin and defilement had occurred, the sacrificial offering had to be made. It wasn't a one time act. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrightousness.

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The OT animal sacrifices had to occur over and over again, for they were not permanent.

But Jesus' sacrifice was once for all time.
As you say in blue: we confess our sins once; He is faithful to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness: past, present and future.

Tomorrow's sin is forgiven, AA. When I commit it tomorrow it is already under the blood: this is not the OT where I have to beg for forgiveness again and again. I am cleansed from all unrighteousness. Jesus' offering perfected me forever!! I am being sanctified!! And I can't lose that (I am sealed by the Holy Spirit)!! Hallelujah!!

And THAT, my brother in Christ, IS Grace!!

Alive_Again said:

We have a provision in Jesus' blood, but it must be applied. It is not carelessly given. You must turn to God in repentance to be forgiven. That is how you go back home righteous. "God be merciful to me a sinner!" Without it, people are just quoting scripture and their is no forgiveness.

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This is true. But the provision is for the lost to be saved. Not a provision for the saved to be saved then saved again then saved again and again. The provision for the saved is the guarantee of Life and Life more abundantly.

Alive_Again said:

I'm not trying to talk anyone of their salvation, but it is important to realize the importance of repentance when seeking forgiveness.

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Ahh, but you are. You are getting poor, ignorant Christians focusing on falling on their faces at the altar repenting again and again for what they have already been forgiven of.

Instead of teaching them that repentance for the believer is an important turning away from sinful actions and getting back on track for what God has ordained each of us for. People are spending time fretting over the possibility that they have become lost and they are not out there bashing the devil in the head and winning the lost out of his clutches.

But Jesus' sacrifice was once for all time.
When I confessed Jesus to be my Lord He perfected me forever!! How long is forever. Does forever end tomorrow with my next sinful action? Do I get a one week reprieve before sin can taint me and remove my salvation?? How long is long enough for forever to be true??

I have been perfected forever!! I have been sealed by God and given the Spirit as a guarantee...

Bill Winston, was preaching on this just the other day. His point was that Christians live in bondage from sin that has been paid for through Christ. His instruction was repent done and over,God does not look at it it is like it never happened. In other words your standing with God has not been defiled, we do not have to provide penance. We do not have to think that we must earn our way back to the fold. Jessie Duplantis said in quoting Paul, but our light afflictions are but for a moment, but the problem is with the help of the church and the devil their supposed to last a lifetime. You know many church folk think this way, its called convict and challenge preaching. The idea is somehow your not living right and you must do better, be there every time the church doors are open walk like the pastor. Pure legalism by a pastor who is handling the Word with his purpose in mind not Gods. This is why great faith teachers get bashed so much by some church crowds ,faith teachers teach ,by faith through faith, with faith, through Christ it is finished as Joseph says! The pastors bashing want people to look to their church instead of Christ for their salvation.

ABlessedMan said:

Hebrews 10:14

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
​

Tomorrow's sin is forgiven, AA. When I commit it tomorrow it is already under the blood: this is not the OT where I have to beg for forgiveness again and again. I am cleansed from all unrighteousness. Jesus' offering perfected me forever!! I am being sanctified!! And I can't lose that (I am sealed by the Holy Spirit)!! Hallelujah!!

And THAT, my brother in Christ, IS Grace!!

But Jesus' sacrifice was once for all time.

Hebrews 10:14

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
​

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hhodgson said:

Excellent response, Bob...Glad you posted this scripture twice. It was meant to be for our continued "renewing of ourselves." with God's WORD...and also re-renewing ourselves with God's GRACE...​

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Excellent, Harry!! Yes!!
Amen!!

now faith said:

Bill Winston, was preaching on this just the other day. His point was that Christians live in bondage from sin that has been paid for through Christ. His instruction was repent done and over,God does not look at it it is like it never happened. In other words your standing with God has not been defiled, we do not have to provide penance. We do not have to think that we must earn our way back to the fold. Jessie Duplantis said in quoting Paul, but our light afflictions are but for a moment, but the problem is with the help of the church and the devil their supposed to last a lifetime. You know many church folk think this way, its called convict and challenge preaching. The idea is somehow your not living right and you must do better, be there every time the church doors are open walk like the pastor. Pure legalism by a pastor who is handling the Word with his purpose in mind not Gods. This is why great faith teachers get bashed so much by some church crowds ,faith teachers teach ,by faith through faith, with faith, through Christ it is finished as Joseph says! The pastors bashing want people to look to their church instead of Christ for their salvation.

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Excellent points all around!!!

The OT animal sacrifices had to occur over and over again, for they were not permanent.

But Jesus' sacrifice was once for all time.

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Yes, that is why we don't need Him to come and do it again. Yet, like as before, when sin was committed, blood was to be shed and faith was to be applied in the prescription for that restoration. It is so today. The provision is made for the cleansing of our robes and we will not enter into Heaven with spotted robes.

As you say in blue: we confess our sins once; He is faithful to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness: past, present and future.

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Jesus paid for all sin (including those who do not repent). We are forgiven for the sins that are past. We are not forgivem for sins that we have not committed. The price has been paid for them, but like the sin of all men and all workers of iniquity, they need to be repented of. We are in a relationship and faithfulness and righteousness are at the foundation of that relationship. We only need cleansing from unrighteousness when we become defiled and behave unrighteously. That is why He cleanses us from all unrighteousness. It's because sometimes we take on unrighteousness and we need cleansing.

Tomorrow's sin is forgiven, AA. When I commit it tomorrow it is already under the blood: this is not the OT where I have to beg for forgiveness again and again.

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You remember the one who's debt was forgiven and then he did not forgive the debt of another. He was cast into prison because He did not forgive. WE will not be forgiven if we do not forgive. We will not be cleansed if we do not repent and believe. The unrighteous will not enter into the Kingdom and their are those who will be thrust out into the outer darkness who are currently sinning, because they will not give earnest heed to what they have heard.

I am cleansed from all unrighteousness. Jesus' offering perfected me forever!!

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IF we walk in the light as He is in the light. IF means you have a part to play in cooperating with the grace that is extended freely to you. You must appropriate by faith, every day that which has been given. You must not let your heart harden by sin. IF means that you must be obedient. One day, in spite of the great grace and so great a salvation that is offered, you and I will stand before Him and give account for our deeds. Let them be done in the light and not just confessing them to be light. Only the pure in heart will see God and no individual scripture will discount the eternal truth of all of the others.

This is true. But the provision is for the lost to be saved. Not a provision for the saved to be saved then saved again then saved again and again. The provision for the saved is the guarantee of Life and Life more abundantly.

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I would suggest that you go back and read what John said about those who sin. The letters of Paul to the church of those of whom the wrath of God came upon. They were given for our warning (as Peter said). Jesus spoke of those who hung out with Him and heard Him and did not do what He said. Would you really argue against those who become stained with sin and iniquity needing cleansing to become the purity that the blood of Jesus provides? I'm talking about ALL people, not just those who are not born again.

Ahh, but you are. You are getting poor, ignorant Christians focusing on falling on their faces at the altar repenting again and again for what they have already been forgiven of.

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I would rather have them with a repentant heart, focus on the righteous of God and to walk humbly and uprightly. Who shall abide in His holy hill? I'll let you answer that in the Psalms.

Instead of teaching them that repentance for the believer is an important turning away from sinful actions and getting back on track for what God has ordained each of us for. People are spending time fretting over the possibility that they have become lost and they are not out there bashing the devil in the head and winning the lost out of his clutches.

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Yes, getting back on track. That is true and it is vital. If you want to go through life teaching that they do not need to abide by the covenant to have peace with God and to be received by God, that is your business. A covenant is a multi party agreement. 2 as far as we are concerned. You can break it. If you are concerned with keeping it, then you are safe in that respect. If you teach other believers that you cannot become workers of iniquity (who will depart from Him), or that they need not have reverential fear of the Lord who will judge them for their deeds (not just for their beliefs), and that each unrepented sin will not receive a just recompense of reward, then you do the church a great disservice. I say this humbly because I have been guilty of other disservices to the church with my own poor example. Nonetheless, every warning throughout the Bible applies to all believers, within the context it is given. There is no free pass and our fruit will judge us. Let it be the fruit of fulfilled righteousness (only done by His grace), and not the work of iniquity.

I have listed 12 reasons why "Christians" never need to confess their sins to be forgiven. By "confess" I mean listing all your sins. I thought it might be worth pulling all these reasons together in a single list...

12 reasons why Christians don’t need to confess-to-be-forgiven

1. It’s not in the Bible. To confess (homologeo) is to agree with God. Sinners need to agree that they are sinful and in need of a Savior. Saints need to "understand" that their sins have been dealt with and they are forgiven.

2. You were forgiven 2000 years ago. (All your sins were future sins) – you hadn’t been born yet.

3. You were forgiven through His blood. Your forgiveness was paid for with God’s blood. Your works don’t come into it.

4. You were forgiven completely for all time. Jesus will never go to the cross again.

5. You were forgiven in accordance with the riches of God’s grace. Forgiveness is His business and His gift to give. Receive it or reject it but you can’t earn it.

6. Your sins are long gone. Jesus’ sacrifice was the atom bomb that did away with sin.

7. God chooses to forget your sin. God is love. Love keeps no record of wrong. Your heavenly Father is not a fault-finder.

8. The Holy Spirit is not convicting you. The law convicts, but the Holy Spirit liberates. How could He convict you of something He chooses not to remember?

9. Confessing-to-be-forgiven puts us under law. Mixing God’s grace with man’s works is like mixing milk with poison. The result is not going to be good for you.

10. Confessing-to-be-forgiven empowers sin. Instead of dealing with sin and releasing life, law-based confession stirs up sin and leads to death.

11. Confessing-to-be-forgiven keeps us from God. When dealing with people, confessing sins and seeking forgiveness may help heal a guilty conscience. But God dosen't relate to us with human love.

12. Confessing-to-be-forgiven makes us sin-conscious, not Christ-conscious.

Every minute you spend dwelling on your sin is a minute wasted. You’re not worthy..? Get over yourself..! Christ is worthy..!

Why do Christians confess-to-be-forgiven when it’s not in the Bible?

I am not against confession. True confession is putting faith into words; it is articulating God’s promises, God’s declarations, and God’s will. But confessing-to-be-forgiven is a work of the flesh. Whether you confess to a priest or directly to God makes no difference. If you do it because you believe it makes you righteous or acceptable to God, then what need have you of a Savior? You have set aside grace and put yourself under law.

You won’t find any believer in the New Testament confessing their sins to be forgiven... So why do we do it..? Why do we spend so much time and energy on a death-dealing extra-Biblical practice..? I can think of at least 4 reasons... We do it simply because we’ve always done it... (So read your Bible, renew your mind and live free...) We do it because we think our sin is greater than God’s grace... (It isn’t.) We do it because we are fearful of "unconfessed sin.." (Sin is sin and on the cross Jesus dealt with it all – big sin, small sin, secret sin and unconfessed sin, (past, present and future). There is no sin that escaped His perfect redeeming work.) Or we do it because we are fearful of judgment day and uncertain about our forgiveness...We hope we’ve been forgiven, but we worry that might not be... If this is you, listen to the words of Jesus:

"My friend, don’t worry..! Your sins are forgiven." (Mt 9:2, CEV)
At some point you’re just going to have to step out in faith and trust that when Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED" it is finished” that it really was finished... At the cross, your sin was dealt with ONCE AND FOR ALL TIME. Look to Jesus and cheer up! (Wommack/Prince)

I am dead to sin, (Rom 6:2) and I am dead to the law, (Rom 7:4) So where there is no law, sin isn't counted against me...(Rom 3:9-20)

Romans 8 "starts" with NO CONDEMNATION "in Christ."
Romans 8 "ends" with NO SEPARATION from the love of God "in Christ."

Listen carefully...We don't have to confess our sins in order to be forgiven...We confess our sins because we are (already) forgiven...
For a believer, we are not to live from confession to confession, but from faith to faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work...by now you should know that you are made righteous by faith, for righteousness is not "right doing", but "right standing" before God, and how is that done..? By your "right believing.."


Greater works...for such a time as this...
_____________
Harry

The only sins you have to confess are the ones that have you in darkness and out of fellowship.
You know which ones they are. I know immediately what I have to confess.