Norman Silva
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That's absolutely correct. People take a couple of verses here and there and make it where you can never fail the grace of God anymore; where you don't have to guard your heart any more. Where you don't have to have fruits meet for repentance, and claim that it's a "done deal". We are still required to walk in the law He puts into your heart. If you don't do it at least to a point, you won't really have faith (even if you once had it). You won't have faith because you won't be hearing.
If you continually harden your heart, your fruit will become rotten. Your mouth will become froward, and your efforts to fulfill righteousness in love will become hypocrisy. The flesh man is totally incapable of walking in supernatural love. You can only do this by abiding in His Word and love.
Paul always talked about repentance and faith. You cannot really repent without confessing your sins (as appropriate). It takes the Blood of Jesus to be forgiven and if you walk amiss, you need to be cleansed, and that means confession. John walked closely with Jesus and he knew exactly what Jesus wanted from us.
They are told from the beginning to repent and believe the gospel. It's not a one time thing.
The letters were to the churches. We don't disregard the revelation to the church (intended for the church) because a letter was addressed to "the elect lady", or anyone else.
I can tell you for certain (not knowing you), that you have sinned as a believer. Paul said that there is "sin that so easily besets us". We have all sinned. We all go the rounds in this world and become offensive to others (at times), we take on defilement by not forgiving others (who offend), etc. We may repent quickly, because our fruit turns sour immediately, but we're liars if we say we haven't sinned (if we do things like this). If you backslide, you might start drinking, doing drugs, live a lie, become law breakers, fornicators with the world, etc. We might become lovers of the world, become covetous, etc. and walk as an enemy of God. This absolutely requires repentance and forgiveness and no defilement will enter into Heaven.
Let's be clear that if you do not forgive those who offend you, you won't be getting into Heaven either. It's vital that everyone preaches this, because you're cooperating in a deception to give anyone the impression that you can.
Why do we need to confess our sins if they have already been forgiven (1 John 1:9)?
Here is another interpretation of 1 John 1:9
The Apostle Paul wrote, To the praise of his glorious grace which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanting."
(Eph 1:6-8)
This forgivenes is referring to salvation, in which God has taken our sins and removed them from us "as far as the east is from the west. "
(Psa 103:12)
This is the jucicial forgiveness that God gives us upon receivng Jesus Christ as Savior. All our past, present, and future sins are forgiven on a judicial basis, meaning that we will not suffer eternal judgment for our sins. We still often suffer consequences of sin when we are here on earth, however, which brings us to the question at hand.
The difference between Eph. 1:6-8 and 1 John 1:9 is that John is dealing with what we call "relational," or "familial," forgiveness; likd that of a father and a son. For example, if a son does something wrong to his father; falling short of his expectations or rules, the son has hindered his fellowship with his father. He remains the sone fo his father, but the realationship suffers.
Their fellwoship will be hindered until the son admits to his father that he has done wrong. It works the same way with God; our fellowship with him is hindered until we confess our sin. When we convess our sin to God, the fellowship is restored. This is relational forgiveness.
"Positional" forgiveness, or judicial forgiveness, is that which is obtained by every believer in Christ. In our position as members of the body of Christ, we have been forgiven of every sin we have ever committed or ever will commit. The price paid by Bhrist on the cross has satisfied God's wrath against sin and no further sacrifice or payment is necessary. When Jesus said, "it is finished," He meant it. Our positional forgiveness was obtained then and there.
Confession of sin will help to keep us from the discipline fo the Lord. If we fail to confess sin, the discipline of the Lord is sure to come until we confess it. As stated previously, our sins are forgiven at salvation(positonal forgiveness), but our dail felloswhip with God needs to stay in good standing (relational forgiveness). Proper fellowship with God cannot happen with unconfessed sin in our lives. There fore we need to confess our sinst to God as soon as wer are aware that we have sinned, in order to maintain close fellowship with God.
Taken from qotquestions.org
Be blessed,
Laoshir
"...'we have not sinned'... Is not a past tense. It is present perfect tense.
1 John 3:9 "9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother."
This verse says if you make a practice of sinning. It is a habitual form of sinning. A lifestyle.
I do not make a practice of just taking verses and using them out of context, so I read by books/epistles to understand what is being communicated by the writer.
When I read the passages I declare that I have nothing whatsoever to contribute to my salvation or sanctification. Nothing of me. Its all about Christ. God is the one finishing the good work He started in me.
I don't see the need to rectify 1 John 1 and 1 John 3. They are fine, clear and they complement each other.
Yes, I agree definitely. When we stumble we repent, ask for forgiveness for the particular sin committed (which is by the way not a lifestyle of sinning). Christ is faithful to forgive us believers. We never lose our salvation.
You see, if you think about it, the unbelievers do not belong to Christ, they will face judgement in the end and will pay for their sins - they never got forgiveness of sin because they still have to pay for it. For example, the false believers, whose names are not written in the book of life, even if they confess their sins, there is no forgiveness and in the end they get thrown out.
On the other hand, when the believers sin - they go to Christ and He is faithful to forgive them.
Well just to reiterate - 'we have not sinned' is not in past tense, but present perfect tense.
Agreed, our living is under Christ's righteousness. Our lifestyle should not be one of habitual sinning. But we do sin, but it is not our habit to sin. And it feels abnormal whenever we do. I testify that I am born again by God. And I still sin. I go to Him to cleanse me and He is faithful to forgive.
I don't agree with that. The context of that passage is 'walking in the light'.
No, I do not agree. it looks to me as how it does in the following passages:
1John 1:7-10 "7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
If you look at verse 7 - after "but" that is talking about walking in the light (talking to believers) - then followed by verse 8 continuing on.
Even if we are not faithful, Jesus remains faithful.
1John 3:9 "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."
The verse clearly says we do not 'practice' sinning. I testify, as a believer that I still sin. But it is not my lifestyle. I do not make a habit of it. And I do not like grieving the Holy Spirit. But Jesus has paid for all my sins. Experentially, I do need to come to the Lord for forgiveness because when I do sin, I grieve the Holy Spirit in me and I need to go to the Lord for forgiveness or else things are not right. Just a question - does this not happen to you?
All glory to God!
AA - I also feel I must add to my comment that I totally understand where you are coming from and have held your belief as well. Today I find myself a bit more in the middle of the perspective and am freely able to admit there are some of these deeper Truths I just have no clear stance upon.
Appreciate your input into this conversation brother!
All of this is wonderful and I agree (except for the keep part which I green'd, but we'll get to that by the end of my post).
First paragraph above. Let's take but one of these verses:
Jude v23Here is one such verse. A defiled garment...those who chase after the flesh. Now in a "lost salvation" doctrine the ones to be saved here could be the lost or could be the backsliders.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
But there is a clue. And it is in the very next verse:
Jude v24-25What is the clue? Him, Jesus, IS ABLE to keep you from stumbling, and [He, Jesus will] present you faultless.
Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior,
Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.
Hmmm. You sometimes decide to follow your flesh, which can stain your garment, but Jesus will keep you from it. He will hold you up from stumbling. He will (not you will...but He WILL) present you faultless.
He has sealed you with the Holy Spirit. He has taken responsibility over you. Does this mean your free will has been removed? God forbid. Can you chase your flesh? Yes, of course. Can you "backslide" and follow the ways of the world after being saved? Yes, you can! But Jesus has never and will never let go of a saint who is truly saved. That saint WILL NEVER stumble, for Jesus has his back. That saint's garments WILL BE presented faultless before Father God at judgement.
This is what Jesus' Blood does for us!! We cannot sin in God's eyes (1 Jn 3:9).
Now let's move to Revelation 3. Church at Sardis. This is a church that was supposed to grow in the Lord but they never knew him, except for a few.
Matthew 7:20-23This is like as to the church at Sardis. They are playing church. They are not committed to the Lord and many, many of them were never saved to begin with. They ACT like Christians, but their heart is far from the Lord.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
Revelation 3:1This church never took root. The seeds were sown on rocky ground. The majority of this assembly, as the Lord tells us here, is dead.
I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Revelation 3:4But there are some who are accepted. And the others have a chace to OVERCOME...they can still get saved!! And if they do: they will be clothed in white garments.
4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
And then as Jude tells us: Jesus "who is able to keep you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless...."
They "must be"?? You went extra-biblical here. No, they mustn't be. The Judgement will be for our works. There are rewards in heaven which are judged to your works. Works are NEVER salvific. Ever! Jesus took care of that. But your works lead to heavenly rewards. Much is taked about in scripture in the form of crowns that will be rewarded to the diligent: a crown of glory (or the pastor's crown) 1 Pet 5:2-4; a crown of rejoicing (1 Thes 2:19-20); an incorruptable crown (1 Cor 9:25); a crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:7-8). And the bible speaks of rewards in heaven, treasures, mansions. And the rewards are tied to your works. But salvation is NEVER tied to your works.
You have one and only one "work" that is necessary: accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
Your last couple phrases above (I underlined) is a problem. A believer may choose to walk in the curse and into the world/flesh, but his conscious will be pricked and seared. A true believer cannot stay on that path, for the Holy Spirit has sealed him and will lead him back (yourself, I guess; a good example of this). You see once saved, you have been justified. You've been washed clean and made new. Your spirit man desires to follow God and His ordinances, not by written Law but by the commandments written on your heart. The process of sanctification has begun and you will begin to shed the world and take on more and more of His righteousness. Your desire will be to seek Him. You may wander at times, but the true believer will come back. Jesus will not lose you. And you will know the true believer by the fruit that is displayed -- yes, some while he wanders may fall rotten to the ground, but you will see the good fruit.
This is the periods that you say the man is backsliding but God has not given up (not pushed the button, as you say below). No. God will never give up. You are sealed; you are His. You are not your own any longer. You may kick and scream and cry and wander in bad directions, but He will tell you to repent, to walk this way, to follow His light, to seek God.
I think you mix the saved and unsaved simply because some verses speak of "the church." There are unsaved attending possibly every assembly.
AA, Jesus is speaking to the seven churches (which are seven church types). And within these assemblies there are saved people and there are unsaved who are playing "church." Sardis was a reprobate church. Most there, as Jesus points out, were not saved; they were unworthy of His righteousness.
There is no scirptural support that our works KEEP us in heaven (or saved). Works simly don't save, on either side of "born-again" status.
You are right: sin spots the robe.
God is Truth: Those born of God cannot sin. (paraphrase 1 John 3:9)
So if I can't sin, then where is the spot? Oh death/sin, where is thy sting?
And yes, only the Blood will keep us in the Light. Further: the Blood WILL keep us in the Light. (Jude v24).
This link leads to an awesome explanation of the subject matter. Thanks for posting, sir!
Dids, you say that "habitual" is not in the verse and is an insertion. But your insistence that it is our spirit that cannot sin is likewise not in the verse and is an insertion. You can't have it both ways.1 John 1:9 is for Christians who have actually sinned. What it is not for are Christians who have not sinned.
If you have not sinned, then you are in the light (not darkness), you are still in fellowship, and there is nothing to confess.
Very often these verses are used as proof text that believers still sin and are still sinful. Yes, the mind needs to be renewed and the body needs to be crucified, but our reborn spirit is incapabl e of sin. John clarifies this in 3:9
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.
People make a mistake here and say that this is talking about the whole man (spirit soul and body). But the body and the soul were not born again, only the spirit. Your spirit is born of God, has God's nature, and therefore sin cannot issue from your spirit.
They also make the mistake of inserting the word "habitual" into the verse "doth not sin habitually."
This too is bogus. If the reason we do not sin is because we have the nature of God in our spirit, then to insert the word "habitually" into the verse would mean that God, as our Father must sin, howbeit not "habitually."
No, God does not sin at all, much less "habitually."
Peace
Dids, you say that "habitual" is not in the verse and is an insertion. But your insistence that it is our spirit that cannot sin is likewise not in the verse and is an insertion. You can't have it both ways.
The fact is this:
1 John 1:9 (NET) -
But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 3:9 (NET) -
Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God's seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.
These two verses are at odds with one another. Either we sin or we don't. 1 John 3:9 says we don't sin because we are saved. We can't sin because Jesus blood has washed us clean of ALL sin (past, present and future). The sin that we sin tomorrow is not recognized by God as sin because Jesus has already cleansed it. (This sin DOES affect us in the flesh and has an effect on our sanctification, but not our salvation.)
Stay with me before you form your rebuttal in your head: now 1 John 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, Jesus is faithful to forgive them. Well what was salvation? Did salvation only forgive the past and present sins?? Do we crucify Christ all over again? To say that we still need forgiven of some of our sins says that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was only partial. It only forgave SOME of our sins. It reminds me of a conversation once where someone told me that God can't see (chooses not to or can't) the future and thus our future sins still need forgiven. This example is Open Theism, which of course is banned in these forums (except under Controversial Theologies forum) according to CF rules. Others who think that man can lose their salvation, and there are many (in fact more than not in WoF believe this as they have come from Pentecostal movements), also preach that each sin is potentially salvific in nature. But I've never received a satisfactory answer for the saved man who looks to the left, sees a pretty girl, lusts in his heart, steps off the curb and gets killed by a bus. Heaven or hell doth he go? And all I get is that God gives some sort of a grace period to actually repent (which is found NOWHERE in scripture). So I guess the destination of this man is hell. Which pretty much puts all of us in hell, since we all sin (I guess by 1 John 1:9) and don't have time to repent (just a simple fact).
As for me, I know that Jesus has saved me. He has washed ALL my sins, even into the future. And because I'm fathered by God I cannot sin. He has sealed me. He owns me. He has me in His hand.
100% agree to this.Quick answer to clear the haze.
Yes, believers can sin from the flesh and the mind.
No, believers cannot sin from the part of them that was born again and has the nature of their Father - their spirit.
Thanks
I wouldn't expect the carnal minded to understand the Words Jesus speaks which are Spirit and Life. One must understand that God is telling us to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Ephesians 4:23,24).
The New Testament is very clear in that God is not mocked... WHATSOEVER we sow IS what we shall reap. If we sow to the flesh we will of the flesh reap corruption... if we sow to the Spirit, we shall of the Spirit reap everlasting Life (Galatians 6:7,8)
Hang in there brutha... maybe you'll get it someday
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