John's Revelation

grafted branch · Nov 9, 2021

AdB said:
I think the simple, straight forward and clear reading of "Satan was bound in the abyss" means as much as "there was no demonic activity allowed whatsoever"

I’m not so sure that there won’t be any demonic activity going on.

If we take a look at Zechariah 14:17-19 there is sedition and possibly heresies taking place in the millennium. Galatians 5:19-21 shows that these things are works of the flesh.

The people in Zechariah 14 that don’t come to Jerusalem to worship the King are being punished with no rain and the plague. Certainly, those people know about what is written in Zechariah 14 yet for some reason they willfully disobey and suffer the consequences. If these people are not being deceived in some way, then the only conclusion would be that some people in the millennium will desire to be smitten with the plague.

eclipsenow · Nov 9, 2021

Douggg said:
You haven't shown one instance of a "thousand years" being used symbolically, to support your argument. There are only two places in the bible that has a "thousand years", neither of which support your argument.

(sighs)

1000 HILLS
Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(What about all the others?)

BLESS 1000 TIMES (only?)
Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
(The promise to Abraham was that his descendants would be too numerous to count - are we going to completely nerf that promise and literally say they'd only increase a thousandfold from their exact numbers that day? Of course not!)

TIME - 1000 generations / forever
Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"

TIME in days
Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
(This one is saying one day serving God with the righteous is better than a gazillion elsewhere - NOT 2.73 years exactly.)

1000 mixed with 10,000 - means an awful lot!
Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."

LIMITING the number of God's people, or expanding it beyond a mere thousand-fold?
Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
(You mean there are literal limits on God's people? I thought God promised Abraham that there would be too many, like the sand in the desert or the stars in the sky.)

Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
(Again, it's not that they disputed with him each day and only 1 person managed to answer him every 2.73 years. It's saying "not one in a gazillion" or basically no one ever answered him.)

AdB · Nov 9, 2021

grafted branch said:
I’m not so sure that there won’t be any demonic activity going on.

If we take a look at Zechariah 14:17-19 there is sedition and possibly heresies taking place in the millennium. Galatians 5:19-21 shows that these things are works of the flesh.

The people in Zechariah 14 that don’t come to Jerusalem to worship the King are being punished with no rain and the plague. Certainly, those people know about what is written in Zechariah 14 yet for some reason they willfully disobey and suffer the consequences. If these people are not being deceived in some way, then the only conclusion would be that some people in the millennium will desire to be smitten with the plague.

Indeed I think these people will be willingly defying God's commands, indeed out of the flesh, they need not to be deceived.

eclipsenow · Nov 9, 2021

grafted branch said:
If we take a look at Zechariah 14:17-19 there is sedition and possibly heresies taking place in the millennium. Galatians 5:19-21 shows that these things are works of the flesh.

You mean pretty much as we see now? I thought these verses pretty much described the human condition in any age.

OBEY: See, John wanted his generation to obey his message.

If it's a warning about something in the far future - what good was it to John's generation when he wanted his generation to hear and obey it? Imagine getting this message? "On Mars most red in the year 4000 AD, the Zorg will Zazzle the Marines in Valles Marineris - and the smoke will rise to the heavens." Now obey this! It's not to you or about you - so how on earth do you obey this? You can barely even comprehend it.

VAGUE: If it's meant to be read as a far future prophecy - what good is it given no 2 futurists can agree on this "end-times timetable" we're meant to have been given to warn us? If it's a warning - why is it so unclear and vague?

FUTURE: If it's a warning to us - what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years - it's not about or to them - so how do they benefit?

grafted branch · Nov 9, 2021

AdB said:
Indeed I think these people will be willingly defying God's commands, indeed out of the flesh, they need not to be deceived.

So, our observation of whether or not the nations worship God or follow his commands will not be something we can use to determine if Satan is bound, correct?

What metric should we use to determine if Satan is bound or not?

grafted branch · Nov 9, 2021

eclipsenow said:
You mean pretty much as we see now? I thought these verses pretty much described the human condition in any age.

Yeah, pretty much as we see it now. I personally think the binding of Satan has to do with his inability to use the nations to destroy Jerusalem until 70 AD.

eclipsenow said:
OBEY: See, John wanted his generation to obey his message.

I’m not premil so I do agree that “this generation” was referring to people at that time.

eclipsenow · Nov 9, 2021

grafted branch said:
So, our observation of whether or not the nations worship God or follow his commands will not be something we can use to determine if Satan is bound, correct?

Correct - it's whether or not the gospel is going into those nations.

When the seventy returned from their preaching mission, they said to Jesus, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name." Jesus replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:17-18). These words, needless to say, must not be interpreted as suggesting Satan's literal descent from heaven at that moment. They must rather be understood to mean that Jesus saw in the works his disciples were doing an indication that Satan's kingdom had just been dealt a crushing blow—that, in fact, a certain binding of Satan, a certain restriction of his power, had just taken place. In this instance Satan's fall or binding is associated directly with the missionary activity of Jesus' disciples.

Another passage which relates the restriction of Satan's activities to Christ's missionary outreach is John 12:31-32: "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast out; and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." It is interesting to note that the verb translated "cast out" (ekball) is derived from the same root as the word used in Revelation 20:3, "and threw (ball) him [Satan] into the pit." Even more important, however, is the observation that Satan's being "cast out" is here associated with the fact that not only Jews but men of all nationalities shall be drawn to Christ as he hangs on the cross.
The binding of Satan described in Revelation 20:1-3, therefore, means that throughout the gospel age in which we now live the influence of Satan, though certainly not annihilated, is so curtailed that he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel to the nations of the world. Because of the binding of Satan during this present age, the nations cannot conquer the church, but the church is conquering the nations.
The Millennium of Revelation 20 | Monergism

grafted branch · Nov 9, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Because of the binding of Satan during this present age, the nations cannot conquer the church, but the church is conquering the nations.

I think the Amil view is a solid view but there are some areas that I have trouble understanding. After the 1,000 years the church will no longer be able to conquer the nations. Is it possible for someone to be saved after the 1,000 years?

Revelation 20:6 says blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Would it still be possible to have part in the first resurrection after the 1,000 years?

eclipsenow · Nov 9, 2021

grafted branch said:
I think the Amil view is a solid view but there are some areas that I have trouble understanding. After the 1,000 years the church will no longer be able to conquer the nations. Is it possible for someone to be saved after the 1,000 years?

It's picture language.
The 'gazillion years' (how 1000 gets used commonly in the Old Testament) is the time between Jesus Resurrection and his Return. The reason there appears a bit 'after' this 'millennium' in our bibles is that we don't understand how this picture language works. It sounds like there is still time, like stuff is still happening on the earth. But actually it's a picture of the end of the world - of Satan rallying the troops for one final fight with God at the end of time - but it's an anti-climax. Fire comes down and destroys them.

It's picture language dressing up theology - not an actual timetable of events.

It's saying "Look at this - even the martyrs are safe with Jesus in heaven for the time between his Resurrection and his Return. And at the end, all God's enemies - no matter how powerful or organised or united - will be overwhelmed with fire, the end, full stop, too bad!" It's emphatic imagery.

Revelation 20:6 says blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Would it still be possible to have part in the first resurrection after the 1,000 years?

Well, given the theologians I read say there is no 'after the millennium' - at least in this universe - no one will need to take part in the 'first resurrection' (being safe with Christ after they've been martyred) because there will BE no more martyrdom. We will be with Christ in a new heavens and new earth - somehow 'heaven' and 'earth' (God's reality and our physical reality) will be 'wed'. Whatever that means. I have trouble visualising basic physics, let alone spiritually infused physics! But 'entropy' or the universe running down will be done away with. We will be safe forever. Imagine knowing that - deep in your very being - feeling it every day for eternity? Amazing.

grafted branch · Nov 9, 2021

eclipsenow said:
It's picture language dressing up theology - not an actual timetable of events.

It's saying "Look at this - even the martyrs are safe with Jesus in heaven for the time between his Resurrection and his Return. And at the end, all God's enemies - no matter how powerful or organised or united - will be overwhelmed with fire, the end, full stop, too bad!" It's emphatic imagery.

I agree that the 1,000 years isn’t meant literally but I would still think it’s a finite number. Revelation 20:7 say when the 1,000 years have expired, Satan shall be loosed. Revelation 20:3 says he will be loosed for a little season. Will Satan ever be loosed or will he just go straight to the lake of fire?

eclipsenow · Nov 10, 2021

grafted branch said:
I agree that the 1,000 years isn’t meant literally but I would still think it’s a finite number.

Of course - a 'gazillion' doesn't have to mean forever - but it does in some contexts.
But as it describes the period while the martyrs reign in heaven, and as the whole gospel hope of Revelation is that Jesus is going to return - of course this period is finite. Of course one day the martyrs get to reign for real in the new heavens and new earth.

The 'millennium' just describes between Jesus Resurrection and his Return.

Revelation 20:7 say when the 1,000 years have expired, Satan shall be loosed. Revelation 20:3 says he will be loosed for a little season. Will Satan ever be loosed or will he just go straight to the lake of fire?

I think it's picture language for the whole assembled enemies of God. Our error is that we keep reading Revelation sequentially - but a lot of it is parallel - or not even really concerned with telling us a literal order of events at all.

The first image is the saints in heaven. They are safe, even though they were murdered. They are safe from the second death.

The second image is the fate of those who hate God - the fire that destroys Satan (who inspired a lot of their work against those very martyrs) also destroys them. The second death gobbles them up.

It's not necessarily a sequential timeline, but an exercise in compare and contrast.

DavidPT · Nov 10, 2021

grafted branch said:
I think the Amil view is a solid view but there are some areas that I have trouble understanding. After the 1,000 years the church will no longer be able to conquer the nations. Is it possible for someone to be saved after the 1,000 years?

Revelation 20:6 says blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Would it still be possible to have part in the first resurrection after the 1,000 years?

If the thousand years have a beginning point and an ending point, obviously then, once the ending point has arrived, the thousand years would be in the past at that point for everyone. Assuming the thousand years are meaning in this age, no it would not still be possible to have part in the first resurrection after the thousand years for anyone who never had part in it during the thousand years. This would be true for both positions, Premil and Amil.

What it would mean per Amil is this. Once the thousand years are expired, no one can any longer be saved. It would be impossible. Does this agree with the following, though?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Then the next verse says.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The question then is, this longsuffering to us-ward, is it meaning all the way up until when the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, or is it only meaning all the way up until when the thousand years expires?

Per Premil it would mean all the way up until the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, except for maybe Pretrib Premil. Pretrib has the rapture occuring first, then the DOTL happening right after, and that they have ppl still being saved during the DOTL. These are to them tribulation saints that get saved after they are left behind and didn't have part in the rapture. Post Trib Premils typically have the DOTL meaning the 2nd coming, as do most Amils. Post Trib Premils then have God's longsuffering to us-ward meaning all the way up to the 2nd coming.

If Amil is the correct position, Amil does not have God's longsuffering to us-ward meaning all the way up to the 2nd coming, they have it only meaning all the way up until the thousand years end. That would have to be the logical conclusion even if some Amils deny that their position has God's longsuffering to us-ward being cut off at the end of the thousand years.

grafted branch · Nov 10, 2021

eclipsenow said:
The first image is the saints in heaven. They are safe, even though they were murdered. They are safe from the second death.

The second image is the fate of those who hate God - the fire that destroys Satan (who inspired a lot of their work against those very martyrs) also destroys them. The second death gobbles them up.

It's not necessarily a sequential timeline, but an exercise in compare and contrast

Are you saying that Satan’s binding can’t be placed on a timeline and in a sense, he has always been both bound and loosed depending on if a person is saved or not?

grafted branch · Nov 10, 2021

DavidPT said:
If the thousand years have a beginning point and an ending point, obviously then, once the ending point has arrived, the thousand years would be in the past at that point for everyone. Assuming the thousand years are meaning in this age, no it would not still be possible to have part in the first resurrection after the thousand years for anyone who never had part in it during the thousand years. This would be true for both positions, Premil and Amil.

What it would mean per Amil is this. Once the thousand years are expired, no one can any longer be saved. It would be impossible. Does this agree with the following, though?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Then the next verse says.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The question then is, this longsuffering to us-ward, is it meaning all the way up until when the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, or is it only meaning all the way up until when the thousand years expires?

Per Premil it would mean all the way up until the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, except for maybe Pretrib Premil. Pretrib has the rapture occuring first, then the DOTL happening right after, and that they have ppl still being saved during the DOTL. These are to them tribulation saints that get saved after they are left behind and didn't have part in the rapture. Post Trib Premils typically have the DOTL meaning the 2nd coming, as do most Amils. Post Trib Premils then have God's longsuffering to us-ward meaning all the way up to the 2nd coming.

If Amil is the correct position, Amil does not have God's longsuffering to us-ward meaning all the way up to the 2nd coming, they have it only meaning all the way up until the thousand years end. That would have to be the logical conclusion even if some Amils deny that their position has God's longsuffering to us-ward being cut off at the end of the thousand years.

I personally also have trouble understanding the Amil view of Satan’s little season after the 1,000 years.

Besides 2 Peter 3 I would also use a verse such as Psalm 51:17 a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. What happens if someone has a contrite heart after the 1,000 years?

I personally can’t accept Premil do to all the conflicts I see. I think there was a “coming” in 70 AD but this prefigures His coming again. The DOTL seems to be an easily understood day at first glance but as I have found out as soon as I think I understand one area of eschatology it then creates conflicts with other areas. I still can’t completely agree with any of the major views.

DavidPT · Nov 10, 2021

grafted branch said:
I personally also have trouble understanding the Amil view of Satan’s little season after the 1,000 years.

Besides 2 Peter 3 I would also use a verse such as Psalm 51:17 a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. What happens if someone has a contrite heart after the 1,000 years?

I personally can’t accept Premil do to all the conflicts I see. I think there was a “coming” in 70 AD but this prefigures His coming again. The DOTL seems to be an easily understood day at first glance but as I have found out as soon as I think I understand one area of eschatology it then creates conflicts with other areas. I still can’t completely agree with any of the major views.

It seems to me that if God is only longsuffering to us-ward up until the end of the thousand years, that should mean that the end of the thousand years are the 2nd coming, then. Except it's not. It is the beginning of satan's little season instead. And that during his little season it would be impossible for anyone to still repent and be saved since it would be impossible to have part in the first resurrection at that point. Everyone that has part in the first resurrection, the text indicates they reign with Christ a thousand years. Can't reign with Christ a thousand years if the thousand years are already in the past during satan's little season.

Even though I'm Premil I can at least admit that position has issues. Try getting an Amil to at least admit there are problems with that position as well. Good luck with that. I have already tried.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 10, 2021

grafted branch said:
Yeah, pretty much as we see it now. I personally think the binding of Satan has to do with his inability to use the nations to destroy Jerusalem until 70 AD.

So, you apparently think Satan was only bound until 70 AD and was loosed at that time? Which means you interpret the thousand years to symbolically represent about 40 years? I don't interpret the thousand years literally, either, but this is taking things too far. Why would a thousand years symbolically represent a time period far shorter than a thousand years?

Spiritual Jew · Nov 10, 2021

grafted branch said:
I think the Amil view is a solid view but there are some areas that I have trouble understanding. After the 1,000 years the church will no longer be able to conquer the nations. Is it possible for someone to be saved after the 1,000 years?

Revelation 20:6 says blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. Would it still be possible to have part in the first resurrection after the 1,000 years?

Does it say otherwise? No. So, I would say yes, it's possible for someone to be saved after the 1,000 years. If someone thinks that no one can be saved and reign with Christ after the 1,000 years then it seems that would mean Christ doesn't reign after the thousand years, either. And, I hope we can all agree that He will not stop reigning when the 1,000 years ends.

The 1,000 years doesn't represent a time period during which Christ reigns and then stops reigning at the end of it. It represents the time period during which He reigns while Satan is bound. The end of the time period is not marked by Christ no longer reigning and people no longer being saved. The end of that time period is marked by Satan being loosed.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 10, 2021

DavidPT said:
If the thousand years have a beginning point and an ending point, obviously then, once the ending point has arrived, the thousand years would be in the past at that point for everyone. Assuming the thousand years are meaning in this age, no it would not still be possible to have part in the first resurrection after the thousand years for anyone who never had part in it during the thousand years. This would be true for both positions, Premil and Amil.

What it would mean per Amil is this. Once the thousand years are expired, no one can any longer be saved. It would be impossible. Does this agree with the following, though?

Why does it have to mean that per Amil? It doesn't. Once again, you are falsely representing Amil. If no one can be saved once the thousand years are expired, then that would mean Christ is no longer reigning when the thousand years are expired. Amil doesn't believe that. It is Satan being loosed that marks the end of the thousand years, not the end of Christ's reign or the end of people being saved and reigning with Him.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Then the next verse says.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The question then is, this longsuffering to us-ward, is it meaning all the way up until when the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, or is it only meaning all the way up until when the thousand years expires?

Per Premil it would mean all the way up until the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, except for maybe Pretrib Premil. Pretrib has the rapture occuring first, then the DOTL happening right after, and that they have ppl still being saved during the DOTL. These are to them tribulation saints that get saved after they are left behind and didn't have part in the rapture. Post Trib Premils typically have the DOTL meaning the 2nd coming, as do most Amils.

And it describes the heavens and earth being burned up at that time, which disproves Premil. But, don't expect a Premil to ever acknowledge that. Every time I've seen a Premil try to interpret 2 Peter 3 it ends up being an embarrassing twisting of scripture.

Post Trib Premils then have God's longsuffering to us-ward meaning all the way up to the 2nd coming.

What about during the supposed thousand years that follow it? He's no longer longsuffering towards people anymore during that time? What is the promise that Peter said we're looking forward to that results in the eternal new heavens and new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13)?

If Amil is the correct position, Amil does not have God's longsuffering to us-ward meaning all the way up to the 2nd coming, they have it only meaning all the way up until the thousand years end.

That is a false statement. Stop misrepresenting Amil! I'm tired of you doing that.

That would have to be the logical conclusion even if some Amils deny that their position has God's longsuffering to us-ward being cut off at the end of the thousand years.

Nonsense. I don't care what your supposed logical conclusions are. Don't tell us what we believe!

Spiritual Jew · Nov 10, 2021

DavidPT said:
Even though I'm Premil I can at least admit that position has issues. Try getting an Amil to at least admit there are problems with that position as well. Good luck with that. I have already tried.

Will you please stop saying nonsense like this? Why would someone who believes something to be 100% true admit there are problems with what they believe? How could it be true in that case? What if someone told you that you should admit that there are problems with your belief that one must believe in Christ, in His death and in His resurrection, in order to be saved? What would you think?

Why do you believe in something that you think has issues? That makes no sense whatsoever. You might as well believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Those beliefs have issues, but I guess that doesn't matter to you.

DavidPT · Nov 10, 2021

grafted branch said:
I agree that the 1,000 years isn’t meant literally but I would still think it’s a finite number. Revelation 20:7 say when the 1,000 years have expired, Satan shall be loosed. Revelation 20:3 says he will be loosed for a little season. Will Satan ever be loosed or will he just go straight to the lake of fire?

Since you don't think the thousand years can be literal, can you explain any of the following?

Some Amils conclude that when one dies who have part in the first resurrection, they continue reigning a thousand years in heaven as souls without physical bodies. That means they have the thousand years back on earth paralleling when they claim the thousand years continue in heaven. That should mean when the thousand years expire on earth they expire in heaven as well. What period of time do Amils call this in heaven? It can't still be the thousand years, in heaven, if it is no longer the thousand years back on earth.

To try and make my point a bit clearer, would Amils already have departed saints reigning in heaven a thousand years before it's even the time of the thousand years back on earth? If they have the thousand years beginning at the cross would they already have anyone reigning in heaven a thousand years, before the time of the cross back on earth? Probably not, right? Shouldn't the same logic apply when the thousand years expire on earth, that since no one back on earth are still reigning a thousand years if that thousand years are already in the past, that that should mean no one in heaven is still reigning a thousand years either?

I thought most ppl believed heaven is a timeless place and not a place where it involves 24 hour days? No matter how you look at it, a thousand years is not timeless, it involves 24 hour days. How could a thousand years possibly be relevant in heaven? It doesn't even matter if a thousand years are meaning 2000 years instead. That still involves 24 hour days.

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