John's Revelation

Douggg said:

It is not 1000 stand alone. It is 1000 years.

We have 20/20 hindsight that a number when associated with years is literal...

Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Those seventy years had an ending, which Daniel was aware of when he prayed his prayer as recorded in Daniel 9.

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70 is not 1000. It could be symbolic itself - 7 * 10 - but it does not have the same number symbolism.

eclipsenow said:

70 is not 1000. It could be symbolic itself - 7 * 10 - but it does not have the same number symbolism.

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It is not an issue of pure numbers. It is 70 years and 1000 years.

The 70 years were not symbolic and had an end to the literal 70 years.

Douggg said:

The 70 years were not symbolic and had an end to the literal 70 years.

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Actually 70 'weeks' of years. That is; a total of 490 years.
Of which 69 = 483 years were completed when Jesus was Crucified.

There is no indication in the Bible of the final 7 years was completed in the first Century, and Revelation has much detail of what will happen during the second half, culminating in the glorious Return of Jesus.

keras said:

Actually 70 'weeks' of years. That is; a total of 490 years.
Of which 69 = 483 years were completed when Jesus was Crucified.

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In Daniel 9, 70 weeks of years, Gabriel's message.

I was referring to the 70 years in Jeremiah 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

Dee-Nabi said:

How would the ten horns be distributed between the seven heads?

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They are not distributed between the seven heads. They are only on one head, the head with a deadly wound that is healed.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.


In verse 20 notice that the text says 'in his head' not 'in his heads'. This has to be meaning the same head that has a deadly wound and is healed.

Douggg said:

It is not an issue of pure numbers. It is 70 years and 1000 years.

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Those two sentences contradict themselves.

The 70 years were not symbolic and had an end to the literal 70 years.

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Good! I'm glad you noticed.
7 is one of the most symbolic numbers in the bible - yet God commanded the OT people of Israel to rest on the seventh day. Ever consider that God made the punishment 70 years for a reason?

But we are getting off track.

The main point is we KNOW that 1000 is symbolic - a very large number - in things, people, blessings, and time. We know TWO OT verses that seem to indicate that when it is applied to time it means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the literal number 1000 - but rather seems to mean forever. And we know that generally, it means a vast number beyond counting, the EG 'sheep on a gazillion hills.'

The fact that John says the 'gazillion years' came to and end seems rather to indicate the more figurative statement that it's "not forever" than that it is literal. It's only literal to you because you WANT it to be literal - have a whole culture around reading it literally where it seems OBVIOUS to you that it's literal. The very ending of it for some reason indicates to you that it is literal.

But it means precisely the opposite to me. It means John is SO aware that when applied to time like 1000 generations it basically means FOREVER (not literally 40,000 years) that he has to spell out that EVEN THOUGH it's a gazillion years, it WILL come to an end one day.

So here's the deal. If that's the reading, why all the frantic end-times-tables for now? Why not in 20,000 years? 40,000 years? 100,000 years? We just don't know - but because of God's mercy - I would bet longer rather than shorter so his kingdom grows even more. It's a good thing Revelation 20 tells us we'll all be safe in Christ when we die then, hey?

eclipsenow said:

Those two sentences contradict themselves.


Good! I'm glad you noticed.
7 is one of the most symbolic numbers in the bible - yet God commanded the OT people of Israel to rest on the seventh day. Ever consider that God made the punishment 70 years for a reason?

But we are getting off track.

The main point is we KNOW that 1000 is symbolic - a very large number - in things, people, blessings, and time. We know TWO OT verses that seem to indicate that when it is applied to time it means EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of the literal number 1000 - but rather seems to mean forever. And we know that generally, it means a vast number beyond counting, the EG 'sheep on a gazillion hills.'

The fact that John says the 'gazillion years' came to and end seems rather to indicate the more figurative statement that it's "not forever" than that it is literal. It's only literal to you because you WANT it to be literal - have a whole culture around reading it literally where it seems OBVIOUS to you that it's literal. The very ending of it for some reason indicates to you that it is literal.

But it means precisely the opposite to me. It means John is SO aware that when applied to time like 1000 generations it basically means FOREVER (not literally 40,000 years) that he has to spell out that EVEN THOUGH it's a gazillion years, it WILL come to an end one day.

So here's the deal. If that's the reading, why all the frantic end-times-tables for now? Why not in 20,000 years? 40,000 years? 100,000 years? We just don't know - but because of God's mercy - I would bet longer rather than shorter so his kingdom grows even more. It's a good thing Revelation 20 tells us we'll all be safe in Christ when we die then, hey?

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Mark 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand ; ) and were choked in the sea.

Take this verse for instance. Why does it say about two thousand rather than about a thousand? Could it be because if it did say about a thousand, that that's the literal amount it would be meaning then? It's obviously literally meaning about 2000 just like it says. It certainly isn't meaning about 1000, or about 10,000.

Had it said this instead---and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about a thousand ; ) and were choked in the sea.---the way Amil reasons things, shouldn't this mean the same as saying about 2000?

DavidPT said:

Mark 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand ; ) and were choked in the sea.

Take this verse for instance. Why does it say about two thousand rather than about a thousand? Could it be because if it did say about a thousand, that that's the literal amount it would be meaning then? It's obviously literally meaning about 2000 just like it says. It certainly isn't meaning about 1000, or about 10,000.

Had it said this instead---and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about a thousand ; ) and were choked in the sea.---the way Amil reasons things, shouldn't this mean the same as saying about 2000?

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Well it's a totally different narrative for one thing. The way it pauses to convey the sheer magnitude of the number of pigs illustrates the sheer size of the miracle being performed here. There are also counts in the OT of the size of armies etc. That's a historical account.

Mark 5:13
13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

But when you get into biblical commands with high prose (will bless you forever, for a thousand generations) you can see that the text itself is comparing 1000 to forever. It's not us Amils - the text itself says it! When you get into the logic of each of the verses below you can see that it's most probably NOT a literal reading of a thousand. It's a gazillion - pure and simple - and sometimes that means a really large abundant number - and sometimes it even means forever.

Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(As there are over a million mountains on earth - let alone all the foothills - it would seem very strange for this verse to literally be saying God's abundant ownership of the whole world LIMITS him to just ONE THOUSANDTH of the hills on earth! That would be a VERY strange reading of the passage!)

Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
(The promise to Abraham was that his descendants would be too numerous to count - are we going to completely nerf that promise and literally say they'd only increase a thousandfold from their exact numbers that day? Of course not!)
Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."
(This one basically means forever - a gazillion)

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"
(What is it? Forever, or only a mere 1000 generations? No - it's Hebrew literary repetition, where forever and 1000 are interchangeable. Conclusion? Not literal.)

Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you." (I mean, is it 1000 or 10,000? How can the author be out by a factor of 10? He's not out - because it's not literal - it's saying "a gazillion will fall, NO, 10 gazillion!" It's literary, not literal.)
Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
(You mean there are literal limits on God's people? I thought God promised Abraham that there would be too many, like the sand in the desert or the stars in the sky.)

Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
(This one is saying one day serving God with the righteous is better than a gazillion elsewhere - NOT 2.73 years exactly.)
Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
(Again, it's not that they disputed with him each day and only 1 person managed to answer him every 2.73 years. It's saying "not one in a gazillion" or basically no one ever answered him.)

eclipsenow said:

Those two sentences contradict themselves.

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70 and 1000 are purely numbers. They can be associated with anything.

"70 years" and "1000 years" are exclusively associated with years.

eclipsenow said:

7 is one of the most symbolic numbers in the bible - yet God commanded the OT people of Israel to rest on the seventh day. Ever consider that God made the punishment 70 years for a reason?

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The 70 years of Babylonian captivity is because the Jews did not observe the Shemitah 7 year cycle day of rest of the land ten times.

eclipsenow said:

The fact that John says the 'gazillion years' came to and end seems rather to indicate the more figurative statement that it's "not forever" than that it is literal. It's only literal to you because you WANT it to be literal - have a whole culture around reading it literally where it seems OBVIOUS to you that it's literal. The very ending of it for some reason indicates to you that it is literal.

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John does not say gazillion of years. The text has 1000 years. It is literal in and off itself - irrespective of my wants.

eclipsenow said:

But it means precisely the opposite to me. It means John is SO aware that when applied to time like 1000 generations it basically means FOREVER (not literally 40,000 years) that he has to spell out that EVEN THOUGH it's a gazillion years, it WILL come to an end one day.

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There is not "forever" implication associated with the 1000 years of Revelation 20 because the text says after the 1000 years expire, Satan will be released from prison.

There are forever statements in Revelation 20, in particular regarding the final status of of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The 1000 years though are a finite, specific number of years.

eclipsenow said:

So here's the deal. If that's the reading, why all the frantic end-times-tables for now? Why not in 20,000 years? 40,000 years? 100,000 years?

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The end-times-tables are not "frantic", they are reality. And for many believers the trusting in God and Christ sense of hope in the resurrection of the sleeping in Christ/rapture translation of the living in Christ being near at hand. And the means to avoid going through the great tribulation.

We know that this generation is the parable of the fig tree generation because we have the visible proof of Israel in the land and Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews. And travel and knowledge increased in the same generation.

Douggg said:

70 and 1000 are purely numbers. They can be associated with anything.

"70 years" and "1000 years" are exclusively associated with years.

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And?

The 70 years of Babylonian captivity is because the Jews did not observe the Shemitah 7 year cycle day of rest of the land ten times.

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John does not say gazillion of years. The text has 1000 years. It is literal in and off itself - irrespective of my wants.

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Rubbish. This is mere assertion and I rather suspect it is all about your wants.

There is not "forever" implication associated with the 1000 years of Revelation 20 because the text says after the 1000 years expire, Satan will be released from prison.

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Which is exactly WHY I am saying John spells it out - because the two OT examples we have of a symbolic thousand being used with 1000 generations and 1000 days both seem to imply forever.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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Irrelevant.

The 1000 years though are a finite, specific number of years.

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Finite yes - but what we do know from the Hebrew use of 1000 is that it is most often NOT specific, ESPECIALLY when used in poetry or symbolic writing like Apocalyptic. This is just a fact - and nothing to do with my wishes because most bible scholars settled on this centuries ago.

Prove that every verse below is literal!?

1000 HILLS
Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(What about all the others?)

BLESS 1000 TIMES (only?)
Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
(The promise to Abraham was that his descendants would be too numerous to count - are we going to completely nerf that promise and literally say they'd only increase a thousandfold from their exact numbers that day? Of course not!)

TIME - 1000 generations / forever
Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"

TIME in days
Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
(This one is saying one day serving God with the righteous is better than a gazillion elsewhere - NOT 2.73 years exactly.)

1000 mixed with 10,000 - means an awful lot!
Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."

LIMITING the number of God's people, or expanding it beyond a mere thousand-fold?
Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
(You mean there are literal limits on God's people? I thought God promised Abraham that there would be too many, like the sand in the desert or the stars in the sky.)

Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
(Again, it's not that they disputed with him each day and only 1 person managed to answer him every 2.73 years. It's saying "not one in a gazillion" or basically no one ever answered him.)

The end-times-tables are not "frantic", they are reality.

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Many of the people asserting them are frantic, and contradict many of the other people frantically asserting their own end-times-tables with all the warnings like "You'll see" and "Why can't you just BELIEVE the prophets?" (meaning THEIR reading of the prophets) and "You'll be sorry" warnings, etc. That's frantic behaviour.

And for many believers the trusting in God and Christ sense of hope in the resurrection of the sleeping in Christ/rapture translation of the living in Christ being near at hand. And the means to avoid going through the great tribulation.

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Except that's a false hope as the pandemic proves we've just been through the tribulation, and it's patronising to many Christians today that are going through life or death persecution right now. I mean, it's just kinda OFF when Christians today rave and rave about a "Great Tribulation" that might be coming when other Christians on the planet are forced to watch their kids buried alive, etc.

We know that this generation is the parable of the fig tree generation because we have the visible proof of Israel in the land and Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews. And travel and knowledge increased in the same generation.

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Yeah yeah - I've heard it all before. Try not to get too excited.

eclipsenow said:

Rubbish. This is mere assertion and I rather suspect it is all about your wants.

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You are trying to divert the issue with some abstract ingredient that has no bearing on the 1000 years in Revelation 20 being literal, with a beginning and an end, finite in length.

eclipsenow said:

Which is exactly WHY I am saying John spells it out - because the two OT examples we have of a symbolic thousand being used with 1000 generations and 1000 days both seem to imply forever.

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eclipsenow said:

Finite yes - but what we do know from the Hebrew use of 1000 is that it is most often NOT specific, ESPECIALLY when used in poetry or symbolic writing like Apocalyptic. This is just a fact - and nothing to do with my wishes because most bible scholars settled on this centuries ago.

Prove that every verse below is literal!?

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I am not getting dragged into some non-compartive applications which do not have a beginning and ending of years, tied to specific events. Which none of those you list do.

The 70 years in Jeremiah 25 that the Jews would serve the king of Babylon is a true comparison because it is years, had a beginning and ending, was tied to specific events, and was prayed about it in such manner by Daniel in Daniel 9 - not as a being symbolic expression - but as being literal.

eclipsenow said:

Many of the people asserting them are frantic, and contradict many of the other people frantically asserting their own end-times-tables with all the warnings like "You'll see" and "Why can't you just BELIEVE the prophets?" (meaning THEIR reading of the prophets) and "You'll be sorry" warnings, etc. That's frantic behaviour.

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It does not change the meaning of the text that the 1000 years are literal.

eclipsenow said:

Except that's a false hope as the pandemic proves we've just been through the tribulation, and it's patronising to many Christians today that are going through life or death persecution right now. I mean, it's just kinda OFF when Christians today rave and rave about a "Great Tribulation" that might be coming when other Christians on the planet are forced to watch their kids buried alive, etc.

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No Christian aware of the times which we live is going to dismiss what the bible says about the forthcoming great tribulation, and all of the end times prophecies associated with it, for that sort of argument... or any kind of counter argument as far as that goes.

eclipsenow said:

Yeah yeah - I've heard it all before. Try not to get too excited.

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The times which we are living are exciting to them who love God, what He has done, what He is doing, and what He will do, and have hope in Jesus's coming for them, and His reward with Him.

Amil's message on the other hand is Jesus is coming to destroy the world.

Douggg said:

I am not getting dragged into some non-compartive applications which do not have a beginning and ending of years, tied to specific events. Which none of those you list do.

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Yes, actually focusing on how the Old Testament demonstrates how it uses a thousand would be devastating your case, so...

The 70 years in Jeremiah 25 that the Jews would serve the king of Babylon is a true comparison because it is years, had a beginning and ending, was tied to specific events, and was prayed about it in such manner by Daniel in Daniel 9 - not as a being symbolic expression - but as being literal.

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...you'll focus on an irrelevant historical period that has nothing to do with how the Hebrew people traditionally used a thousand in their prose - hey?

It does not change the meaning of the text that the 1000 years are literal.

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Can I ask you an honest question?
Do your 'arguments' above even convince yourself?

eclipsenow said:

Do your 'arguments' above even convince yourself?

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How is that you are convinced we are in the Millennium now?
The 1000 years since Jesus' Advent passed long ago.
Jesus is not ruling over the world now.
Satan is well able to deceive and confuse people.
No Prophecy says Jesus will destroy the world at His Return
The Sixth Seal is the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, a reset of our civilization, to set the stage for a One World govt.

Just take note of what Jesus said and didn't say:
Isaiah 61:1-2 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me....to proclaim a year of the Lord's favor.
He stopped there; returned the scroll and sat down.
What He didn't say and is therefore unfulfilled prophecy is: and the Day of vengeance of our God.

The rest of Isaiah 61:3-11, goes on to describe how His faithful people will go to live in the holy Land, in peace and prosperity, after that terrible Day; the Sixth Seal. Then, later into the Millennium.

keras said:

How is that you are convinced we are in the Millennium now?

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That passage is about the martyrs safe in heaven

The 1000 years since Jesus' Advent passed long ago.

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Um, do you WANT me to post every instance of a thousand being used symbolically for an enormous multitude, a million or so, or forever? Again?

Jesus is not ruling over the world now.

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That's actually heresy - but it would take too long to explain because you hate theology. But if you read Revelation you would see that even in the gospel passages he reigns now.

Satan is well able to deceive and confuse people.

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Yes - of course - and you KNOW the answer to this. We've been over it. Why are you asking again?

It's that Satan cannot stop the gospel going forth into the nations. As the gospel mission advances, Satan's kingdom retreats.

No Prophecy says Jesus will destroy the world at His Return

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Oh, really? We've only shared them with you like 10,000 times.

The Sixth Seal is the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, a reset of our civilization, to set the stage for a One World govt.

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Yeah, right - and only 1/20th of the human population is 'judged' in this GREAT ENORMOUS MOST STUPENDOUSLY HORRIFYING DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH that a few rats in the Middle Ages managed to beat with the Black Plague. Yeah - totally....

eclipsenow said:

That passage is about the martyrs safe in heaven

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Their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Rev 6:9-11
They must wait until the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. But the souls of the later martyrs; killed during Satans reign, will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4

eclipsenow said:

Um, do you WANT me to post every instance of a thousand being used symbolically for an enormous multitude, a million or so, or forever? Again?

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Your interpretation of every instance of a thousand being used in the Bible, is not a thousand, is tendentious, highly opinionated and quite wrong.
You violate scripture to make the: a thousand years of Revelation 20, to be not: a thousand years. Six times.

eclipsenow said:

That's actually heresy

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That Jesus is not yet ruling and reigning over the world, is reality.
He has yet to Return and take up His rightful rule.

eclipsenow said:

It's that Satan cannot stop the gospel going forth into the nations. As the gospel mission advances, Satan's kingdom retreats.

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As Satan is now the Prince of the world and has been since Adam sinned, is proved by how He temped Jesus. Also 1 Peter 5:8-9
I imagine that Satan is very happy with the AMill belief. It means he isn't blamed for the likes of Hitler and the general decline of morality and the rise of crime.

eclipsenow said:

Yeah, right - and only 1/20th of the human population is 'judged' in this GREAT ENORMOUS MOST STUPENDOUSLY HORRIFYING DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH

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It will be the Middle East region most affected; virtually depopulated, Zephaniah 1:14-18 Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 9:10-12, +
But many will die around the world too; Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 13:12, Jeremiah 9:22

We can only guess the death toll. My guess is about half; 4 billion people wiped out.
As this massive CME will strike the earth at mid day ME Time, we can see by looking at a globe map, the countries who will not get the initial strike. However as the earth rotates, everyone will experience the extreme heat, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis.

keras said:

Your interpretation of every instance of a thousand being used in the Bible, is not a thousand, is tendentious, highly opinionated and quite wrong.

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Well you've certainly got that other Hebrew prose technique down pat - hyperbole.
I didn't say EVERY use of thousand was symbolic - as they often had to count soldiers, food, etc.
But then it's usually multiples thereof.

But a thousand? It's not my fault you don't like good bible scholarship or hermeneutics, but when you're in a hole, stop digging?

1000 HILLS
Psalm 50: "I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens,
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(What about all the others?)

BLESS 1000 TIMES (only?)
Deuteronomy 1:11 - "11 May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!"
(The promise to Abraham was that his descendants would be too numerous to count - are we going to completely nerf that promise and literally say they'd only increase a thousandfold from their exact numbers that day? Of course not!)

TIME - 1000 generations / forever
Deuteronomy 7:9 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments."

Psalm 105:8 - "He remembers his covenant FOREVER, the promise he made, for a THOUSAND generations"

TIME in days
Psalms 84:10 - "Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."
(This one is saying one day serving God with the righteous is better than a gazillion elsewhere - NOT 2.73 years exactly.)

1000 mixed with 10,000 - means an awful lot!
Psalm 91:7 - "A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you."

LIMITING the number of God's people, or expanding it beyond a mere thousand-fold?
Isaiah 60:22 - "The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a mighty nation."
(You mean there are literal limits on God's people? I thought God promised Abraham that there would be too many, like the sand in the desert or the stars in the sky.)

Judges 15:16 - "Then Samson said, “With a donkey’s jawbone I have made donkeys of them. With a donkey’s jawbone I have killed a thousand men.”

Job 9:3 - "Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."
(Again, it's not that they disputed with him each day and only 1 person managed to answer him every 2.73 years. It's saying "not one in a gazillion" or basically no one ever answered him.)

eclipsenow said:

Um, do you WANT me to post every instance of a thousand being used symbolically for an enormous multitude, a million or so, or forever? Again?

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You haven't shown one instance of a "thousand years" being used symbolically, to support your argument.

There are only two places in the bible that has a "thousand years", neither of which support your argument.

One is in 2Peter3:8
One is in Revelation 20:4 , 20:7

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The word thousand by itself is found 395 instances in the bible.

THOUSAND IN THE BIBLE

AdB said:

The explanations you have been giving are quite long-winded and not very clear to be honest.
You seem to rely heavily on alleged parallel symbolism of other texts which are not directly related to Rev 20 and as far as I've seen you haven't given a counter argument that it seems quite obvious that Satan is in fact very actively and successfully deceiving the nations.

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I think you should consider that Satan is the only being that is bound for the 1,000 years. In Jude 6 the angels that kept not their first estate are kept in everlasting chains but in Revelation 12:9 Satan and his angels are cast to the earth.

From 1 John 1:8 we know it’s possible for people to deceive themselves and from 1 King 22:21-23 that there are lying spirits that deceive; so the question becomes how can we distinguish between Satan’s deception and other types of deception.

What verses are you using to come to the conclusion that it’s Satan himself that is currently doing the deceiving?