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Johns Gospel

Knee V

It's phonetic.
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Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written in the first generation of the church to an audience that was largely uncatechized. Although the thrust of the individual synoptics were slightly different, the overall gist was the same - to give a basic account of Christ.

John, on the other hand, was written in about the third generation of the church's life, to an already-established christian community. So, while the first three are largely catechetical, John is not. John writes his gospel with the assumption that his audience already has a firm grasp on the christian faith. He writes about the two most significant aspects of the christian life - Baptism and the Eucharist - all throughout his gospel. You'll notice that water and wine/blood/food are used extensively throughout John's gospel. Another way of saying that is John shows how the Incarnation - detailed in his opening account - has transformed and permeated creation in the life of the church.
 
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StormHawk

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I would advise against reading the commentaries of so-called fathers.
It denies the whole point of Jesus giving his life. You end up trying to understand follow & rely on their thoughts instead of developing confidence in your relationship with God.

Joh_6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jer_31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 
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StormHawk,

I would advise against reading the commentaries of so-called fathers.
It denies the whole point of Jesus giving his life. You end up trying to understand follow & rely on their thoughts instead of developing confidence in your relationship with God.

Joh_6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jer_31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

I've not examined that completely and I reasoned to show speaking of The Passion in THE HOMILIES OF ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, ARCHBISHOP OF CONSTANTINOPLE, ON THE GOSPEL OF ST. JOHN.

Part of

Homily XIV.

John i. 16

Will you then that we begin with the Passion itself? What then saith the type? “Take ye a lamb for an house, and kill it, and do as he commanded and ordained.” ( Ex. xii. 3.) But it is not so with Christ. He doth not command this to be done, but Himself becomes It, by offering Himself a Sacrifice and Oblation to His Father.
[4.] See how the type was “given by Moses,” but the “Truth came by Jesus Christ.” ( Ex. xvii. 12.)
Again, when the Amalekites warred in Mount Sinai, the hands of Moses were supported, being stayed up by Aaron and Hur standing on either side of him ( Ex. xvii. 12 ); but when Christ came, He of Himself stretched forth His Hands upon the Cross. Hast thou observed how the type “was given,” but “the Truth came”?
Again, the Law said, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things that are written in this book.” ( Deut. xxvii. 26 , LXX.) But what saith grace? “Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” ( Matt. xi. 28 ); and Paul, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.” ( Gal. iii. 13.)

From

NPNF1-14. Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of St. John and the Epistle to the Hebrews
 
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Zoe of Elyon

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I would advise against reading the commentaries of so-called fathers.
It denies the whole point of Jesus giving his life. You end up trying to understand follow & rely on their thoughts instead of developing confidence in your relationship with God.

I don't think so. While it's certainly crucial and necessary for each individual to have a personal relationship with God and to study Scripture for oneself, supplementing personal study of Scripture with study of commentaries and writings is very beneficial. If you think about it, the only reason any of us today knows anything about Jesus is because of other people. Many of us were raised in the church, taught by our parents, while others may have been brought to faith later in life by another person. Even if nobody influenced you directly to become a Christian - you just picked up a Bible, read it, and believed - the Bible in your hands only exists because of two thousand years' worth of copying, preservation, translation, and scholarship.

Jesus calls us to be members of His Church. We cannot function as well when we cut ourselves off from the Body, and we are not meant to do so. In fact, it's usually when people cut themselves off from the Body that cults develop.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Some have argued, and I think there's merit to it, that John's Gospel was written in part as a polemic against proto-Gnostic tendencies. Thus the author presents the Word becoming flesh, Jesus is real and solid; and this against Docetic notions of Jesus as only having "seemed" to be human, solid, and flesh.

In any event, John is less about the basic Jesus Story (as the Synoptics are) and as others have mentioned, is a more robust theological text. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and consistently throughout the text we see this affirmation where Jesus says He speaks for the Father, that He is the One God has sent, that to know Him is to know God, etc. John has a lot going on in it, and as such it presents a powerful picture of the Lord Jesus as confessed by the Christian Church.

To put it a bit more simply, the Synoptics are about what Jesus did, John is more about who/what Jesus is.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I would advise against reading the commentaries of so-called fathers.
It denies the whole point of Jesus giving his life. You end up trying to understand follow & rely on their thoughts instead of developing confidence in your relationship with God.

Joh_6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jer_31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

That doesn't make any sense at all, frankly.

Christianity isn't "me 'n Jesus 'n the Bible", but the Body of Christ gathered around the Lord Jesus Christ in community, receiving and confessing the word which has been passed on to us. As such, to ignore what the Church has taught and confessed over the last two thousand years is at best foolishness and at worst the simplest path toward heresy.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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StormHawk

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supplementing personal study of Scripture with study of commentaries and writings is very beneficial.
Please share an example of this benefit.

If you think about it, the only reason any of us today knows anything about Jesus is because of other people.
God certainly used faithful people to share his word with me and to show the truth thereof by their transformed lives, this inspired me to seek it for myself.

That came after I had spent years listening to teachers giving their own & other people's opinions without telling me that I needed to receive the Spirit, just like all the disciples.

The reason they didn't tell me is that they didn't have the revelation of the need, theires was a taught "gospel", like the Galatians struggled to break free from.

"the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. " (Galatians 1:11-12) - just like Peter at Pentecost.



the Bible in your hands only exists because of two thousand years' worth of copying, preservation, translation, and scholarship.
True God was behind that, but that's different from reading interpretations, opinions & applications of others.

Jesus calls us to be members of His Church. We cannot function as well when we cut ourselves off from the Body,
By bringing in all these alternative ideas & words-only "gospels" instead of the original need to receive the Spirit and be taught by him you are in fact cutting yourself and others off from the true body.

Please share what you believe the born again experience is?
When were the disciples born again?
Is it the same today?
 
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LuxMundi

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theires was a taught "gospel"

Our Gospel is a taught Gospel:

2 Thess. 2:13 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

2 Tim. 2:2 "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."
 
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Zoe of Elyon

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Some have argued, and I think there's merit to it, that John's Gospel was written in part as a polemic against proto-Gnostic tendencies. Thus the author presents the Word becoming flesh, Jesus is real and solid; and this against Docetic notions of Jesus as only having "seemed" to be human, solid, and flesh.

I have also heard that John's use of the word Logos was the Greek equivalent of Memre (Word), which the teachers of the Law at that time (not sure which group; I don't currently have access to where I read this) used to emphasize God's transcendence and in essence, to make Him less of a "person" and more of a distant concept. John took their concept and totally transformed it by saying the Word (Logos, Memre) became flesh.

Please share an example of this benefit.

I'm having a hard time picking just one. Over the years there have been literally dozens of books, pastors, teachers, speakers, and even friends who have broadened my knowledge of the Bible and of God. This has happened at church, camps, conferences, small groups, random conversations, and online discussions. :) Sometimes I pick up a book because I want to know more about a specific subject; sometimes there's a verse I'm having a hard time with, so I'll read several different commentaries on that passage to get more perspective.

My pastor when I was in college was almost a walking encyclopedia when it came to Jewish culture. When he preached, he gave so much information on the cultural context of the passage he was talking about, and it completely opened my eyes to what the writers in the Bible were thinking when they wrote things that were specific to their frame of reference. Matthew 11:12 and Luke 16:16 are (together) a good example of this. I never really understood that verse before, and when my pastor preached through Luke he focused on 16:16 and the information he gave was really fascinating.

God certainly used faithful people to share his word with me and to show the truth thereof by their transformed lives, this inspired me to seek it for myself.

That came after I had spent years listening to teachers giving their own & other people's opinions without telling me that I needed to receive the Spirit, just like all the disciples.

Okay, so it sounds like your opinion is a response to what you experienced. I get that. When you live a long time just accepting what other people tell you, and never check it out for yourself, or even make your own personal commitment to Jesus, the whole thing is worthless to you. Without a personal relationship with Jesus, you're just like these guys:

"Acts 19:13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

However, that doesn't mean that learning from others (whether in person or through other means) is thereby invalidated.

The reason they didn't tell me is that they didn't have the revelation of the need,

I'm not sure what you mean by "the revelation of the need." Could you explain?

theires was a taught "gospel", like the Galatians struggled to break free from.

The problem with the Galatians wasn't that the "gospel" they believed was taught (I mean, they were taught the true gospel by Paul); it's that it was a false gospel that men made up. The Judaizers went around telling Gentile Christians that they had to keep the Mosaic Law and become Jewish in order to be saved. Paul's epistle was a response to that false teaching. Paul's statement that he wasn't "taught" the gospel but "received" it from Jesus is to show that his gospel is the true one. From the perspective of the Galatians, both gospels were taught to them by somebody else, but Paul's message came straight from God whereas the other didn't. His problem was not with the fact that they believed something they were taught, but with the source and content of that teaching.

True God was behind that, but that's different from reading interpretations, opinions & applications of others.

Do you have a pastor you listen to?


By bringing in all these alternative ideas & words-only "gospels" instead of the original need to receive the Spirit and be taught by him you are in fact cutting yourself and others off from the true body.

I never said we don't need to receive the Spirit ourselves. I'm saying that listening to other people's ideas is not a bad thing. I'm not recommending that we accept any opinion that we come across, but it is wise to learn from those who have lived before us (cf. the entire book of Proverbs). When one, for example, reads the writings of the early church fathers, one can gain insight and perspective that one may not have gotten on one's own, because we live in a completely different society today than they did and we may not understand things the same way. Now, one can choose whether to accept or not accept what they read, because we have the ability to think critically and analyze what we put into our minds. But I think that if we just ignored those people, we would lose a lot in our understanding of the Bible.

Please share what you believe the born again experience is?

I still think you're totally misunderstanding me, but okay. I believe one is born again when they "confess with [their] mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in [their] heart God raised him from the dead," upon which they receive the Holy Spirit.

When were the disciples born again?

That's a really good and more difficult question. I think that salvation is both crisis (one-time event) and process (ongoing). Were they saved when Jesus called them and they followed? or was Peter saved when he confessed Jesus as Messiah? or the first time they acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God, and worshiped Him? or when they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? But since you used the specific term "born again" and Jesus tells us we must be born of the Spirit, I think the correct answer is Pentecost.
Is it the same today?[/QUOTE]

Our Gospel is a taught Gospel:

2 Thess. 2:13 "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

2 Tim. 2:2 "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."

Those are great examples. I would add to that:

Galatians 6:6 "The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him."

Ephesians 4:21-24 "Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."

Colossians 2:6-7 "So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness."

Titus 1:9 "He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it."
 
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StormHawk

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I'm not sure what you mean by "the revelation of the need." Could you explain?
When I met people who had received the infilling of the Spirit & who were living the new Life that follows it was different to anything I'd seen before. The confidence, contentment, rejoicing, peace etc... powerful. Well-meaning religious people weren't in the same ball-park - I was one of them, I realised I didn't have in me what they had, so, to cut a story short I came to a point where I wanted nothing more than what they had, called on God and at the 3rd time, alone in my room, began speaking in tongues (like the jews & gentiles in Acts when they received the Spirit - 2:4, 33; 10:44-48, 19:1-6). That was 26 years ago, it's been a flow of revelation and God's nature ever since (of course I've got in the way but through the Spirit I overcome me, "the flesh").

Do you have a pastor you listen to?
I listen to pastors & teachers in the church I'm with, just like others listen to me, but it's God that does the teaching / revealing of what is his truth.


I still think you're totally misunderstanding me, but okay. I believe one is born again when they "confess with [their] mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in [their] heart God raised him from the dead," upon which they receive the Holy Spirit
I certainly don't believe that. That's taken from Romans 10:9 near the end of a long letter written to people that are already born again, only they can truly believe and confess (homo-logos - speak the same word) Jesus because only they can understand Him.
In Acts, the apostles never told people "confess Jesus and believe him from the dead" and because of that you have the Spirit, they waited for God's independant witness of speaking in tongues (see also John 3:8, Galatians 4:6) rather than judging their own or other people's hearts that they were "born again". Jesus warned about this "confession gospel" saying that many will come to him, calling Him Lord, and will be told "I never knew you". Sorry if I sound a bit rough and combative, I just want to give you a clear message that I also needed to hear to get me out of religion into right relationship with God.


That's a really good and more difficult question. I think

Think or know? - the early church knew precisely when people received the Spirit, and when they hadn't, even though people were believers (Acts 8:12-16).

... But since you used the specific term "born again" and Jesus tells us we must be born of the Spirit, I think the correct answer is Pentecost.
Yes! receiving the infilling of the Spirit, otherwise known as the baptism in the Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues = the born again experience, always will be, no other gospel!


Those are great examples. I would add to that:
Galatians 6:6 ...
They are talking about teaching people that have already received the Spirit, as detailed above.
 
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StormHawk

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I just have one question before we proceed on this subject: do you believe that the only evidence of salvation is speaking in tongues, and/or that Christians who do not speak in tongues are not saved?
If you will not proceed based on scripture alone then you are not open to correction on this vital subject from what you will be judged according to. Time to choose what/who you will listen to!

"the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,
and shall be turned unto fables." (1 Timothy 4:3-4)
 
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ViaCrucis

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If you will not proceed based on scripture alone then you are not open to correction on this vital subject from what you will be judged according to. Time to choose what/who you will listen to!

I prefer to listen to Sacred Scripture and the historic witness of the Christian Church. I generally find that is a far more sober and Christian method of dealing with theology and Christian praxis then those who provide novel theologies rooted in personal opinion and experience as though it were the biblical and apostolic faith.

If we are not confessing the Christian faith as it has always been confessed (Jude 3) then we are not confessing the Christian faith; but something else altogether and, at the point, we should be highly suspicious of ourselves for having confessed something new and heterodox.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Steve Petersen

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I was wondering why John's gospel was so different from the others, and why the gospel was included in the bible... with it being so different from the others...?

Different for sure: no parables, no calls to repentance ('Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand,' etc.)

A friend of mine has a theory that at its core John is built around seven signs to the Jewish people (Jesus miracles in John.) These signs have some correspondence to the ministry of Jeremiah, the prophet of doom.

Waiting for him to flesh this out, but I might try reading John alongside Jeremiah and see what happens.
 
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