John's Baptism for repentance

[notinvain]

I wanted to propose a question about John when he stated that "one would come after him (that is Christ) that he would baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

Since John was preparing the way for Jesus and was often speaking of what was to come, was he prophesying about the day of Pentecost in Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on those in the upper room and when the Holy Spirit came on them like tounges of fire? If so, then was he propossing a replacement for water baptism or was he prophesying about the power of the Holy Spirit that would usher in the Kingdom of God?

 

[nobdysfool]

I wanted to propose a question about John when he stated that "one would come after him (that is Christ) that he would baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Fire."

Since John was preparing the way for Jesus and was often speaking of what was to come, was he prophesying about the day of Pentecost in Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on those in the upper room and when the Holy Spirit came on them like tounges of fire? If so, then was he propossing a replacement for water baptism or was he prophesying about the power of the Holy Spirit that would usher in the Kingdom of God?

My understanding of this has always been that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was a reference to the Day of Pentacost and forward from that time, and the fire was a reference to persecution and trials. I do believe that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is still available for believers today, but many do not avail themselves of it, because they've been taught that the events of the Day of Pentacost and immediately following were only for that time. Seems the "tongues" is the sticky point.

As for the baptism of fire, I believe that there is quite a bit of evidence, even from Jesus' own words, as well as Paul's letters, that those who will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution. One could wonder, if they are not being persecuted, are the truly living a godly and holy life? Not making a rule about it, but it should give one to think....all things happen as God Wills.

NBF

 

[notinvain]

One could wonder, if they are not being persecuted, are the truly living a godly and holy life? Not making a rule about it, but it should give one to think....all things happen as God Wills.

I could'nt agree more with you on this part!

As for the baptism of fire, I believe that there is quite a bit of evidence, even from Jesus' own words, as well as Paul's letters, that those who will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL suffer persecution

This though makes little sense to me, if fire means persecution than does Acts 2:3 mean that the Spirit came to rest on them with tongues of persecution? I don't mean to sound like I am calling you stupid or anything, but that just makes no sense to me. No where, when mention of persecution comes up is there any relation to fire, but I am always open to scripture, so if you can show me some scripture where this would be even remotely correlated then please show me.

 

[johnny_redeemed]

Could the "fire" also be the Day of Pentacost

 

[nobdysfool]

This though makes little sense to me, if fire means persecution than does Acts 2:3 mean that the Spirit came to rest on them with tongues of persecution? I don't mean to sound like I am calling you stupid or anything, but that just makes no sense to me. No where, when mention of persecution comes up is there any relation to fire, but I am always open to scripture, so if you can show me some scripture where this would be even remotely correlated then please show me.

I'm thinking of fire in the sense of the way gold is refined. How the intense heat causes imperfections to rise to the top to be skimmed off. In both the OT and NT, reference is made to the refining process. I don't have time at the moment to look up all the references. I will try to do so when I have a few moments.

NBF

 

[Colossians]

was he prophesying about the day of Pentecost in Acts when the Holy Spirit fell on those in the upper room and when the Holy Spirit came on them like tounges of fire?
Yes, and also about the same which others would experience afterward.

If so, then was he propossing a replacement for water baptism or was he prophesying about the power of the Holy Spirit that would usher in the Kingdom of God?
Water Baptism is never replaced: it speaks to the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit.
John was prophesying about the power of the Holy Spirit which would come via the Baptism in the Spirit.

It is a mistake though to infer that Pentecost ushered in the Kingdom of God. God's kingdom is in heaven, where all believers, OT and NT, have always been seated, whether still on earth, or not.

Concerning the "fire" issue, this word is simply used as synonym for "Holy Spirit": (2 ways of saying the same thing, similar to Jesus' use of "water" and "spirit" with regard to regeneration).
However, in terms of outworking, this "fire" baptism will necessarily result in increased persecution, for it marks a believer for greater opposition in the spiritual realm. In that sense, one could loosely infer that the fire speaks to persecution, by association.

 

[StevenL]

Matthew 3
5Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9and do not think to say to yourselves, "We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.[1] 12His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Ok...who's he talking to when he makes his statement about the baptism of fire here? Check it out. He was baptizing Jews and the Pharisees and Saducees came to be baptized. So.."he said to them...." To whom? Pharisees and Saducess. Now look at the statement..."His winnowing fan is in His hand"..... He's harvesting...He's cleaning out His Threshing Floor ( His people.) He's gathering wheat (those who bear fruits worthy of repentance) into His barn (saving it). The chaff (who were separated from the wheat by the fan (Christ's judgment - Matthew 25:31-46)), the Pharisees and Saducees who would not bear fruit worthy of repentance, are to be burned in the unquenchable fire. Getting rid of it. *Matthew 23:33 You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the penalty to be suffered in hell (Gehenna, the Fire)? * *Revelation 20:15
15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. <<<<****e Chaff. The Baptism of Fire.* *Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.*
Just some thoughts.

 

[Colossians]

StevenL,

"Fire" is used in two ways in the passages you quote:
1. The Holy Spirit Baptism.
2. Destruction of the wicked.

Your implied rendering (fire means destructive fire) is incorrect because John implied that the same who were baptised in water, might partake of the baptism of fire to come, for the baptism of fire is only for the regenerate, and those baptised in water by John were regenerate.

The Pharisees, it is implied, were not baptised by John. No-one baptises those whom he also calls "brood of vipers". They were instead adjured to bring forth works fitting for repentance.

You will note then that v11 tends to redirect its focus back to the general ministry of John, and to his prophesy of what was to come. That it immediately follows v10 in which he was criticising the Pharisees does not require its continued devotion to that topic. Scripture is not an account of all sequential events, just those that are important.

 

[StevenL]

No, I think it's pretty plain within the text. Bad trees burn. Chaff burns.