John the baptist: Matt3:1-12

[mindlight]

You might want to bookend Matthew with some of the last words from God in the OT from Malachi 3:1
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.

and Malachi 4:1-6
1 “Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

Then the next words from God are from Luke 1:11-17
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

So I would think that John's parents would have related this parallel to John and he was merely fulfilling the role as he understood it to be. I don't think anyone at that time could have comprehended God's true plan.

As far as John knowing Jesus well, I don't know. We do know that Elizabeth and Zechariah lived near Jerusalem and Joseph and Mary in Nazareth. So the opportunities to meet may have been few. Or maybe the Gospel of John got it right and John the Baptist knew Jesus as the Messiah, not only in vitro, but when he saw him near the Jordan from afar. Maybe that recognition was already there and he was just telling the others about it.

Those verses talk about a more ferocious and sterner Messiah than the gentle Jesus meek and mild we tend to encounter in church on Sunday. This is the kind of Messiah that would sort out IS and arrogant national leaders the world around. But when Jesus came the Roman empire did not fall. Indeed its Christianised form lasted till 1453, injustices continued to be committed and the arrogant and the wicked continued to prosper. So these words seem unfulfilled and await the Second Coming.

Regarding the relationship between John and Jesus after that "leapt in the womb" first encounter and before the baptism it would be great to know more but I suppose it would be speculation and that the scriptures themselves do not consider them that important.

 

[mindlight]

The Jews consider two forms of the messiah, ie 'messiah ben David', the ruling messiah and 'messiah ben Joseph', the suffering messiah. The Jews expected the 'ruling messiah' to be the 1st occurrence. They had it backwards.

Yes John was teaching on the aspects of the messiah but IMO he was reading into the cultural situation and expected the messiah to come to rule.

IMO, the same was the error of Judas. He expected Yeshua to overthrow the Romans. Judas was a zeolot. He set up the conflict with the Romans but didn't get the outcome he was expecting.

Interesting parallel between Judas and John. I suppose some people do not accept the interpretation of Judas as a Zealot. He may have had monetary motives for betraying Jesus for instance as he stole from the money bag and accepted 30 pieces of silver.

Thanks for the insight regarding the suffering Messiah and the ruling messiah. Yes clearly Jews have that the wrong way round.

 

[Haramis]

I think the reason that John was uncertain about Jesus is simple. Jesus was John's cousin. It's the same reason Jesus only failed to perform miracles in one place - his home town. People look at Jesus and think "I knew this kid growing up. You're telling me that little Jesus who used to walk around on all fours, pretend he was a puppy and howl at the moon, grew up to be a prophet of God? Ha! No way! He can't heal me." and so He couldn't. John was struggling with the same problem. He knew Jesus personally, and that made it difficult to accept Him as the messiah. When you picture the future leader of your people, you are not going to imagine your carpenter cousin.

 

[mindlight]

I think the reason that John was uncertain about Jesus is simple. Jesus was John's cousin. It's the same reason Jesus only failed to perform miracles in one place - his home town. People look at Jesus and think "I knew this kid growing up. You're telling me that little Jesus who used to walk around on all fours, pretend he was a puppy and howl at the moon, grew up to be a prophet of God? Ha! No way! He can't heal me." and so He couldn't. John was struggling with the same problem. He knew Jesus personally, and that made it difficult to accept Him as the messiah. When you picture the future leader of your people, you are not going to imagine your carpenter cousin.

John seems to be more than just a sceptical cousin.

Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels was helpful here:

Some scholars have theorised that John may have been orphaned early in his life (given the age of his parents) and then joined the Qumran community in the desert with its isolationist philosophy. There is apparently evidence that Qumran adopted orphans (Josephus) , the location bears this out, he was introduced in scripture with a text important to the Qumran community (is 40:3(Mk1:2)). Johns diet and ascetical appearance goes well with this community also (honey and locusts (Damascus Rule)). Also the idea that water could wash people clean was similar to the ablution rites in Qumran. He had a focus on the end times and a belief that the judgment of God would soon fall on Israel and also the view that Israel's leadership was hopelessly corrupt and out of touch with God.

The differences with that community indicate that he was no longer a part of it ( or no longer influenced by it 100%). He was for example on a mission to get people to repent rather than simply withdrawing from a community awaiting judgment. His baptism was different from the Jewish rites of the time and was for the forgiveness of sins repented of (although this is all hotly disputed), he is open for business for Gentiles and Jews, clean and unclean. He apparently did not even believe in a remnant clean before participating in his baptism. Unlike Qumran who wanted nothing to do with the politics of the realm John would directly challenge and insult the king himself. His ascetic behaviour , diet and appearance was not completely unheard of outside of Qumran.

Scholars therefore speculate that he was once a member and then left.

John seems to have a preached a message of impending eschatological judgment that he did not see realised in Jesus. Where was the fiery judgment on Israel that was the expectation of both himself and the Qumran community.

But Johns broader message did allow for the more positive task of creating a remnant in Israel and from that the broader global church as a precondition to the judgment(s) to come. Indeed Qumran would witness the annihilation of Israel by the Romans at the time of Josephus but this was not an event that eliminated the growing community of the church. Johns message included the message of repentance, a call to honest and charitable conduct, the view that just being born a Jew was not enough and that repentance and its fruit was also required, preaching against immorality in the political elite of his time, the idea that the Coming one would gather the wheat as well as burn away the chaff.

His preaching was not the same as that of Jesus preaching the coming Kingdom. Jesus began his ministry calling people to repent as did John but he vastly expanded on the good news aspect of this message and his teaching, enabling the blind to see, the lame to walk , curing the sick were all positive evidence of the vastly better community that Jesus wanted to build.

Jesus regarded John as a the greatest of all the prophets cause he was the one who in effect opened the door for the messiah preparing the way by the timing of his ministry and also by its content.

 

[tz620q]

Those verses talk about a more ferocious and sterner Messiah than the gentle Jesus meek and mild we tend to encounter in church on Sunday. This is the kind of Messiah that would sort out IS and arrogant national leaders the world around. But when Jesus came the Roman empire did not fall. Indeed its Christianised form lasted till 1453, injustices continued to be committed and the arrogant and the wicked continued to prosper. So these words seem unfulfilled and await the Second Coming.

Regarding the relationship between John and Jesus after that "leapt in the womb" first encounter and before the baptism it would be great to know more but I suppose it would be speculation and that the scriptures themselves do not consider them that important.

We just finished a Bible study on the OT prophets as messengers of mercy. One thing that is different between the OT prophets and today is that in OT times, God started with a mission and a message. He then selected an individual to convey that message and fulfill that mission. The prophet would continue with his message from God until the mission was fulfilled. This took different lengths of time. It is almost comical seeing Jonah waiting outside Nineveh under a gourd plant, probably waiting to see a Sodom and Gomorrah event. On the opposite end are people like Jeremiah who seemed to have been a prophet for all of his adult life. In the OT, once the mission was completed, God's will had been fulfilled and the prophet was no longer needed. In NT times, we are all called to be prophets of the Good News and this is a general message and a general mission that does not end.

Thank you for your many good comments above.

 

[Soyeong]

Matt 3:1-12 is the background verse for a sermon I will give in a few weeks.

I want to use this Thread to try and understand the passage. Advice and insights would be appreciated.

Focusing on JB himself. He is a simple man dressed in Camel hair and leather, living in a desert, eating locusts and honey. Yet the people and even religious leaders go out to meet him in this inhospitable place. Clearly God was with him and this explains his pull.

He is a prophet anticipated in Isaiah. He is angry at the smug self regard and hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He is hopeful that the Messiah is coming soon. He urges people to be ready for that , they need to repent. It must be genuine repentance

JBs theology and view of the Messiah is what really interests me. JB was in effect the last of the OT prophets looking forward to the Messiah and longing for his arrival. There is a "be ready or else" theme to his preaching. Be ready or the Ax will fall, do not trust in your inheritance as a son of Abraham but rather let us see the fruit of repentance in your life. The Messiah is painted as one who would bring judgment. One who would separate the wheat from the chaff. He is portrayed as a man of power baptising with fire and the Holy Spirit.

My questions are these:

1) The contrast between Johns understanding of what the Messiah would be and what The ministry of Jesus on earth would be was so great that John himself sent disciples to ask if Jesus was in fact the Messiah. Jesus answer was on the lines of look at my fruit and deeds. The blind see, the lame walk...etc

Why was the contrast between Johns picture of the Messiah and what Jesus did so great?

At the Second Coming Jesus will be this Judge and fiery presence but in the experience of JB he was not that.

2) was JBs picture of the Messiah in fact quite culture bound? The Jews of the time were looking for a powerful political Saviour from the Romans. One who would judge their enemies. Is this also JBs impression or is he actually testing each individuals response to the Messiah and does not care if they are Jews or Romans?

3) I thought JB was Jesus's cousin. Did they never meet before the Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan?! If he had met him would he have painted the Messiah as this powerful judge angry at sin.

There are verses in the Bible that describe the Messiah as a suffering servant and others that describe him as a conquering king, so many Jews who didn't know what to do with this combination thought that there would be two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph, who would be the suffering servant, and Messiah ben David, who would rule and reign. John the Baptist knew that Jesus was the suffering servant because he introduced him as the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world, but he was now sitting in prison on death row, getting a little impatient about when Jesus was going to get to the part with the ruling and reigning, and wondering if he should expect another Messiah ben David who would do that. In Matthew 11:4-6, Jesus responded to John by recalling to John's disciples prophecies of the Messiah that he had fulfilled.

Isaiah 35:4-6 Say to those who have an anxious heart, “Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.” 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; 6 then shall the lame man leap like a deer, and the tongue of the mute sing for joy.

Isaiah 29:18-21 In that day the deaf shall hear the words of a book, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see. 19 The meek shall obtain fresh joy in the Lord, and the poor among mankind shall exult in the Holy One of Israel. 20 For the ruthless shall come to nothing and the scoffer cease, and all who watch to do evil shall be cut off, 21 who by a word make a man out to be an offender, and lay a snare for him who reproves in the gate, and with an empty plea turn aside him who is in the right.

It says in Matthew 11:2 that John had heard about the deeds that Jesus was doing of healing the blind, the deaf, the lame, and the mute, but John was wondering about the parts where these verses talk about the Messiah coming with vengeance and retribution and wondering when the ruthless people who were after his head would vanish.

Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.”

This verse again couples the good news being proclaimed with God's reign, which again would bring about divine justice.

Isaiah 61:1-3 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor;[a] he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn; 3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion—

Messiah did all of these things, except, where is the day of vengeance? So John was wondering when all of this would happen Jesus replied by talking about what he had been doing, which again was not news to John because he had already heard Jesus was doing those things. So then Jesus added something that could never be mistaken by a 1st century Jew, where they would know that he was claiming to be the Messiah:

Matthew 11:6 And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”

This would immediately take Jews to here:

Isaiah 8:14-15 And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many shall stumble on it. They shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken.”

Isaiah 28:16 “Behold, I am the one who has laid[d] as a foundation in Zion, a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.’

So Jesus was telling John that yes, he was the Messiah, but many will not accept that and will stumble on account of him, and blessed is he who does not. He was alluding to these passages in Isaiah to say that he is the Messiah by comparing himself with this stone, and in doing so he was telling John that there will be many who miss it. He had done all these things where the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them, but because it was not paired with the day of vengeance immediately, there will be those who stumble. So he telling John not to doubt, not to be like one of them, and not to stumble.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why was the contrast between Johns picture of the Messiah and what Jesus did so great?

What contrast ?
As the previous post shows, Y'SHUA sent others to John to tell John what Y'SHUA was doing - all Y'SHUA was doing John knew well from TORAH, PSALMS and the PROPHETS.

Is this also JBs impression or is he actually testing each individuals response to the Messiah and does not care if they are Jews or Romans?

Did John immerse any Romans or gentiles ? Many or a few ?

Why should this absence of Christians due to ISIS be something we accept. When Mosul falls and proper government is restored there maybe Christians will again be allowed to live in peace there.

"live in peace" as in "peace, peace, when there is no peace" ......
violence and defilement and deception has been worldwide for centuries,
against Christians, including in the 'west' ....

IS is a blasphemy against God , calling on his name to justify murder. extortion, rape and slavery. Our fierce Lord will see justice done in Mosul and in Raqqa.

This is and has been done in many places on earth, for many generations.
It has been blindly and/or blandly accepted in most countries "in God's Name" .... for many centuries ever since the first century.

he is open for business for Gentiles and Jews, clean and unclean.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/guzik/commentaries/4003.htm
"ii. Baptism was practiced in the Jewish community already in the form of ceremonial immersions, but typically it was only among Gentiles who wished to become Jews. For a Jew in John's day to submit to baptism was essentially to say, "I confess that I am as far away from God as a Gentile and I need to get right with Him." "