John Paul II a "saint?"

Bill McEnaney

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I'm not over the pope. I'm only telling you what a council and some other popes have taught. Even the 1983 Code of Canon Law says that the faithful have a right to express their concerns about what a pope does. St. Thomas Aquinas and other saints, including St. Robert Bellarmine, tell us that we need to resist what the Pope does when it's contrary to the Catholic Faith, harmful to the Church, or to harmful to the faithful. I'm not detracting the Pope, since I'm talking about things he does in public. I'm nat calumniating him, since I'm not trying to character-assassinate him. I assume that his intentions are good. But I believe that whether he knows it or not, he's been doing some things that every pope should avoid.

I probably exaggerated when I used the phrase "severe persecution," because I used it because I thought the FFI were getting persecuted that way.

Here's a definition of "heroic virtue."

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33915
 
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Bill McEnaney

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I don't see the FFI as being persecuted in any way.
I agree with you, Fireball, but I think the FFI got treated unjustly. Did anyone mean to treat them that way? That's not for me to know.

Too often, I need to ignore what Vatican prelates do, because it depresses me. The Holy Trinity chose my birth and death dates. Sometimes I still wish I'd been born decades before I was born.

For me, it's very sad to know that Francis seemingly doesn't want to do what his predecessors did. From my perspective, the most painful, most offensive thing about his pontificate is that he seems to want it to be revolutionary. Heaven knows what he thinks of my heroes: St. Pius X, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Antonio Salazar, and Garcia Moreno.
 
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VolRaider

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I agree with you, Fireball, but I think the FFI got treated unjustly. Did anyone mean to treat them that way? That's not for me to know.

Too often, I need to ignore what Vatican prelates do, because it depresses me. The Holy Trinity chose my birth and death dates. Sometimes I still wish I'd been born decades before I was born.

For me, it's very sad to know that Francis seemingly doesn't want to do what his predecessors did. From my perspective, the most painful, most offensive thing about his pontificate is that he seems to want it to be revolutionary. Heaven knows what he thinks of my heroes: St. Pius X, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Antonio Salazar, and Garcia Moreno.

Surely you're not talking about the Portuguese dictator? Who unleashed PIDE on his populace?
 
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Bill McEnaney

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Surely you're not talking about the Portuguese dictator? Who unleashed PIDE on his populace?
Yes, I am thinking of him, and I believe I posted an article to explain a lot about why I admire him. But that hardly means that I condone everything he did. So if he does evil things, maybe I'll stop admiring him, too. Sadly, I don't admire any pope who ruled the Catholic Church after 1958. Although Paul VI, John Paul II, and Francis disappoint me thoroughly, I used to look up to JPII and Benedict XVI, John Paul for the way he coped with his Parkinson's Disease and Benedict for making the Traditional Latin Mass more available despite how much other prelates hated what he did for that kind of liturgy. Whatever I may believe about Pius XII's successors, I'm still happy to acknowledge their virtues and to applaud wonderful things they've done. Though the good thief was a criminal, we can still be proud of him for his repentance and for the brave way he defended Christ.

I'll repost a link to the article about Salazar. For now, let me repeat a thought experiment that I discovered at one of my favorite blog cites in a post called City of Man, which you'll find here (The Orthosphere | Wherever an altar is found, there civilization exists – Joseph de Maistre).

Say I'm the lifelong dictator in Oceana, where 60% of the citizens are sociopathic unrepentant male rapists and everybody else is a defenseless woman. Naturally, the men there would want me to replace my dictatorship with democracy, partly because they want to assault the women. Should I do that because in a democracy, at least in a liberal one, the majority rules? For me, the answer is an obvious, emphatic "no."

I'm against liberal democracy, partly because it treats truths about morality as matters of opinion. That's why same-sex marriage is legal in New York State, why hypocritical politicians say, "Although I'm pro-life, I won't impose my values on others, and I respect a woman's right to choose abortion." In these cases, those politicians act as though their liberty trumps the truth, the lives of unborn babies, the nature of marriage, and the natural law that St. Paul writes about in his Letter to the Romans.

These issues tell you some reasons I'm a Catholic. The Anglican communion now allows same-sex "marriage." Before 1930, every Christian denomination forbade artificial contraception. Today some denominations let committees decide whether their denominations with allow abortion after a rape or when the mother's life is in danger. Most non-Catholic Christians I know seem to tolerate those exceptions, in part because they don't know when a human being's human personhood begins. In my opinion, those exceptions for abortion are liberal. From my perspective, if we're going to err, we should be too cautious. The conservative answer to the question, "Should there be abortion when we don't know when human personhood begins?" should be, "When in doubt, don't." As my favorite political philosopher, Dr. Roger Scruton, tells us in his book The Meaning of Conservatism, a society should maintain a ban on a practice until it knows that lifting that ban won't harm society. I'm not trying to hijack this thread. I'm giving examples of what may go wrong in a democratic society. If I were Oceana's dictator, the majority would not rule when ruling would let them commit rape.

Since you may not have read my other posts, maybe I need to say that I'm a throne and altar conservative and a counter-revolutionary.


http://romancatholicheroes.blogspot.com/2009/08/antonio-salazar.html
http://orthosphere.org/2014/05/18/repost-the-city-of-man/
 
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ebia

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Bill McEnaney said:
Say I'm the lifelong dictator in Oceana, where 60% of the citizens are sociopathic unrepentant male rapists and everybody else is a defenseless woman.
If 60% of your population are adult males you've got a massive problem.

(BTW, why did Oceana get the bad rap?)
 
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Bill McEnaney

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If 60% of your population are adult males you've got a massive problem.

(BTW, why did Oceana get the bad rap?)
I don't know why Oceana got a bad rap if it did. Maybe the blog post author wrote about a fictional place with the same name. He did the thought experiment to argue for the natural moral law because he believes that God legitimates governments. I used the experiment to show that dictatorship can serve a good purpose.

Here in the US, I hear, women outnumber men, but I don't know what percentage they do that by if they do it.
 
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ebia

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Bill McEnaney said:
I don't know why Oceana got a bad rap if it did. Maybe the blog post author wrote about a fictional place with the same name. He did the thought experiment to argue for the natural moral law because he believes that God legitimates governments. I used the experiment to show that dictatorship can serve a good purpose. Here in the US, I hear, women outnumber men, but I don't know what percentage they do that by if they do it.
The normal birth rate for humans is very slightly more women than men. In most places the life expectancy of women is also slightly greater, though war or lack of medical facilities or other factors can change that.

But if 60% are male rapists that leaves only 40% for males who aren't rapists! children and women. In other words to set up the thought experiment he's create an absurdly unbalanced and ill worded situation that does little to make one think the thing is thought though properly.

Why pick up on Oceania? Because set in Oceania the immediate country that springs to mind with endemic rape and other violence is PNG. but democracy in PNG has definitely been a force for the better, albeit an imperfect one.
 
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Bill McEnaney

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The normal birth rate for humans is very slightly more women than men. In most places the life expectancy of women is also slightly greater, though war or lack of medical facilities or other factors can change that.

But if 60% are male rapists that leaves only 40% for males who aren't rapists! children and women. In other words to set up the thought experiment he's create an absurdly unbalanced and ill worded situation that does little to make one think the thing is thought though properly.

Why pick up on Oceania? Because set in Oceania the immediate country that springs to mind with endemic rape and other violence is PNG. but democracy in PNG has definitely been a force for the better, albeit an imperfect one.
Ebia, the thought experiment is implausible, partly because the other 40% are women and do children. But in Derek Parfit's book Reasons and Persons, you would read about an even less likely one with which he makes a point I forgot long ago. In that book about personal identity, he describes an imaginary man on a Star-Trek-style spaceship. The man walks into a transporter, presses the "transport" button to travel to the planet below, hears a sound, and stays in the machine. He asks the transporter technician what went wrong. "I'm sorry," the technician replies. "That one broke." In a few weeks you'll die here, but on the planet, you'll survive 40 more years."

The two wander to a closed-circut television, where the passenger talks with the transporter's copy of him. Parfit believes that the transporter helped the man when it lengthened his life. The point of the story is that a person consists in a collection of beliefs, thoughts, memories, attitudes, and so forth who can live in another brain, in a computer, or in any other container suitable for that collection.

I know of no one who believe that thought experiment is very plausible. But real-world plausibility is inessential, since he's writing about something that could happen in some probably merely possible circumstance. To me, the blogger's thought experiment is about a scenario where democracy and majority rule would allow something immoral. Sure, the thought experiment has some flaws. I still believe my point about dictatorship, though.

During a lecture Sir Charles Coulombe and a teacher gave together, the teacher told the audience about a time when he convinced his students that sometimes majority opinion is false. To do that, he asked them to vote for what were, in their opinions, the right answers. Sadly, most usually voted for wrong ones.

You guessed it. I don't care for liberal democracy. :) Although deliberative democracy may be impractical during a national election, I suppose, there's something good about it, too. Since voters talk about and debate what they'll vote, reasoning and evidence may help some voters vote for, say, the best candidate on the ballot.
 
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ebia

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Bill McEnaney said:
Ebia, the thought experiment is implausible, partly because the other 40% are women and do children. But in Derek Parfit's book Reasons and Persons, you would read about an even less likely one with which he makes a point I forgot long ago. In that book about personal identity, he describes an imaginary man on a Star-Trek-style spaceship. The man walks into a transporter, presses the "transport" button to travel to the planet below, hears a sound, and stays in the machine. He asks the transporter technician what went wrong. "I'm sorry," the technician replies. "That one broke." In a few weeks you'll die here, but on the planet, you'll survive 40 more years." The two wander to a closed-circut television, where the passenger talks with the transporter's copy of him. Parfit believes that the transporter helped the man when it lengthened his life. The point of the story is that a person consists in a collection of beliefs, thoughts, memories, attitudes, and so forth who can live in another brain, in a computer, or in any other container suitable for that collection. I know of no one who believe that thought experiment is very plausible. But real-world plausibility is inessential, since he's writing about something that could happen in some probably merely possible circumstance. To me, the blogger's thought experiment is about a scenario where democracy and majority rule would allow something immoral. Sure, the thought experiment has some flaws. I still believe my point about dictatorship, though. During a lecture Sir Charles Coulombe and a teacher gave together, the teacher told the audience about a time when he convinced his students that sometimes majority opinion is false. To do that, he asked them to vote for what were, in their opinions, the right answers. Sadly, most usually voted for wrong ones. You guessed it. I don't care for liberal democracy. :) Although deliberative democracy may be impractical during a national election, I suppose, there's something good about it, too. Since voters talk about and debate what they'll vote, reasoning and evidence may help some voters vote for, say, the best candidate on the ballot.
I don't think anybody seriously thinks democracy is perfect or solves every situation. You don't need half baked "thought experiments" for that - there are real world examples out there.

"Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the rest".

Representative democracies, of course, are not mob-rule.
But even if they were, generally the opinion of the mass is less bad than the opinion of a self-appointed individual or military-appointed individual.
 
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Bill McEnaney

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I don't think anybody seriously thinks democracy is perfect or solves every situation. You don't need half baked "thought experiments" for that - there are real world examples out there.

"Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the rest".

Representative democracies, of course, are not mob-rule.
But even if they were, generally the opinion of the mass is less bad than the opinion of a self-appointed individual or military-appointed individual.
Ebia, please correct me if I'm wrong about what I'm going to tell you in a paragraph or two to follow, because I haven't thought deeply about what about to say. Even I had reflected that way on it, I would still need your help.

Although I would prefer to live in Monaco partly because it's a Catholic principality, the US and state governments are the only ones I may already know well. Naturally, here in the States, we aren't living under mob rule. But we are, in my opinion, putting up with a federal government where congresspeople, our president, and others care too, too little about the common good. Their concern shortage helps explain why abortion on demand is legal here, why three or more states allow same-sex "marriage," and why members of Congress passed Obamacare when hardly anyone in Washington understood that roughly 2,300-page bill.

From what I can tell, American self-rule is probably an illusion. Even if it's genuine, I still have big problems with it. What we're suffering from here, I suspect, is a group of politicians who value their agendas much more than they care about the common good. Too often, they get their way when we the American people only think we're getting ours. Whatever falls into our national lap, we are, in Lockean style, supposed to endure it because we at least implied that we agreed to it.

You live in the United Kingdom, right? If you do, please consider yourself blessed because Her Majesty reigns as a nonpartisan sovereign who does care deeply about tradition, national unity, the common good, and the Holy Trinity's rights. England and the rest of the UK may be a largely secular place. The Queen may have much less power than I would want her to possess. Here in the United States, we're governed by a man who tries seemingly to use much more power than our Constitution supposedly grants him. However admirable his intentions might be, something I have no way to tell, his administration has been thoroughly destructive, in part, I suspect, because the United States allows something that pre-Vatican-II popes condemned long ago, the national government's refusal to acknowledge the social reign of Christ the King. For the Catholic Church God the Son deserves to rule much more than every Christian heart. Each government should apply His principles because He and the other divine Persons invented the universe, each part of it, and government as it is in itself. A government's legitimacy comes from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, not from the consent of the governed. As a pope asked, if a people governs itself, what happens to authority?

We in the United States, we as a nation, have denied Him what each nation owes Him, public acknowledgement of His inalienable rule the world and each nation in it. A country such as the one with it deistic Masonic origin pays pays God lip service while it prefers its will to His. If Her Majesty is a fine a person as she seems, I doubt that she approves of the way this country or its government treats God and His holy wishes. Many Americans call this country Christian one. I don't. A truly Christian one would let Christ and His holy Gospel affect everything that country did.

Like Sir Charles Coulombe, I'm a monarchist mostly because I'm a Catholic. I'm a Catholic first and an American second. I'm also a throne-and-altar conservative. Sadly, if American principles were the only American things I could conserve, there would be little or nothing for me to defend. Someday, if you happen to talk with Her Majesty, please tell her that you've met an American who believes firmly that the American Revolutionaries were traitors.
 
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ebia

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Bill McEnaney said:
Ebia, please correct me if I'm wrong about what I'm going to tell you in a paragraph or two to follow, because I haven't thought deeply about what about to say. Even I had reflected that way on it, I would still need your help. Although I would prefer to live in Monaco partly because it's a Catholic principality, the US and state governments are the only ones I may already know well. Naturally, here in the States, we aren't living under mob rule. But we are, in my opinion, putting up with a federal government where congresspeople, our president, and others care too, too little about the common good.
Monarchs and other dictators are just as capable as not caring for the common good and more interested in feathering their own nest or acquiring as much power as possible.

You live in the United Kingdom, right?
I'm British, but I live in Australia (and have spent 18 months living in Nauru)


If you do, please consider yourself blessed because Her Majesty reigns as a nonpartisan sovereign who does care deeply about tradition, national unity, the common good, and the Holy Trinity's rights. England and the rest of the UK may be a largely secular place. The Queen may have much less power than I would want her to possess.
The queen has no practical power. And her successors very likely won't share your values.

Not that it matters much because she has no power.

Here in Australia the prime minister is supposedly a Roman Catholic, but you wouldn't know it from the way he got into power by demonising defenceless people and selling the idea that locking them up and denying them their human rights was a good idea.
 
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Here in Australia the prime minister is supposedly a Roman Catholic, but you wouldn't know it from the way he got into power by demonising defenceless people and selling the idea that locking them up and denying them their human rights was a good idea.

Being an American and thus generally uninformed about politics in the rest of the world, I'm only recently familiar with Tony Abbott. Chiefly because John Oliver did a bit about him on his new HBO show.

The people of Australia have my condolences.

Yowza.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Bill McEnaney

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Monarchs and other dictators are just as capable as not caring for the common good and more interested in feathering their own nest or acquiring as much power as possible.


I'm British, but I live in Australia (and have spent 18 months living in Nauru)



The queen has no practical power. And her successors very likely won't share your values.

Not that it matters much because she has no power.

Here in Australia the prime minister is supposedly a Roman Catholic, but you wouldn't know it from the way he got into power by demonising defenceless people and selling the idea that locking them up and denying them their human rights was a good idea.
I know about hypocritical Catholics, ebia. I think I've met some nominal Catholics, too. For me, it's very hard to respect a so-called pro-choice one who still has the nerve to receive Holy Communion when he'll say publicly, "I'm personally against abortion, but I'll still support a woman's right to choose one." Those politicians seem to value their careers more than they value their religion. How much do they care about the unborn babies who die in Planned Parenthood clinics, in secular hospitals, and in even in unsanitary places that could harm the mothers, too? Does it matter to a Catholic "pro-choice" politician that with that position, he has already earned automatic excommunication? Maybe he still needs to learn that his Church teaches that any Catholic who receives Holy Communion knowingly, willingly,freely, and culpably when he's under excommunication commits a mortal sin?

What about monarchy? Well, you may already know that I want to be the subject of a devout, holy Catholic one who reigns and rules. Salazar was no king. Like the rest of us, he was imperfect and sinful, too. But for at least part of his administration, he lived by his religion's principles.
 
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