John MacArthur, please remove the plank from your eye

High Fidelity · Jul 17, 2021

I used to like John MacArthur a lot, but since Covid and his teaching on it, it's been one of a few things that have put me off.

In regards to his compensation, yes he's clearly paid a lot and I don't think pastors, regardless of success, should be getting paid that much. What I will say though is that very often there are letters sent out on the mailing list offering books/new books for free if you can't afford to donate. So while I'm sure many do donate in return, they are still making what they perceive as helpful and edifying materials available to those without means.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 17, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
Since John MacArthur isn't here to speak for and potentially defend himself - this entire thread amounts to gossip.

If something about his message while Pastoring seems wrong to you, address those specific points of Scripture he propounds on and discuss why you disagree - from Scripture - but don't attack the man and talk about his personal life behind his back.

The author of the article is guessing a lot, and has no earthly idea what MacArthur gives in charity, or even what his actual salary is... he's guessing based on certain assumptions. Did MacArthur come from a wealthy family? You don't know, maybe that home was an inheritance 40 years ago...

None of us can decide the details of a person's finances without knowing, from the horses mouth, what they actually are versus how much he gives both in taxes as well as charity as well as his actual (not hypothetical) income.

So... you can choose to live according to Scripture, or not. I disagree with MacArthur on a couple fairly major points of Scripture, but I'm not about to start making assumptions about his position before God on the day of Judgement and make all sorts of nasty allegations about his personal life which I know nothing of.

GOOD DAY.

The Roy's report actually uses official documents. For example, they show a document that MacArthur has a 700,000 villa.

You can check out the actual sources in the article.
The Prosperous Lifestyle of America's Anti-Prosperity Gospel Preacher | The Roys Report

So it is not just false and or made up claims or gossip.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 17, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
Haha... where in the Bible does it say a person is an automatic hypocrite just because they have some wealth?

Does MacArthur preach against it or call having wealth a sin? That would make him a hypocrite if he does indeed have money. . But I've never come across him saying anything of the sort if so...

I would like to point out that if your thinking of the parable of the wealthy young ruler Jesus spoke to in Scripture, that wasn't teaching against wealth perse, it was a teaching against a very common misconception at the time that if a man was wealthy he was blessed by God for his righteousness. Jesus was pointing out that the wealthy are no more righteous than the poor man not so materially blessed, and pointing to all of our need of a Savior. What is impossible for man, is indeed possible with God.

He's being hypocritical in the sense that he has about as much money as them in the fact they are both millionaries. WE are talking about MILLIONS here and not thousands. John MacArthur has access to millions and even if he does nothing with it, that is still a problem holding on to all that money or assets when he could be using those resources to help those who truly need it.

DamianWarS · Jul 17, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Just to show that I'm not a Calvinist fanboy, I have never liked John MacArthur. Other than his opinions on female teachers, I agree with most of what MacArthur has to say. But in terms of his lifestyle, does he practice what he preaches?

https://julieroys.com/prosperous-lifestyle-americas-anti-prosperity-gospel-preacher/

http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/phil-johnson-covers-up-john-macarthurs-extraordinary-compens.html

The above chart is not counting his other income streams, like from book royalties. Joel Osteen, on the other hand, who I disagree with on pretty much everything, receives no salary from his church:

I'm not coveting John MacArthur's money. I feel sorry for the members of his church for having to pay his extravagant salaries. I don't care how Joel Osteen makes his money, because it's not from the church coffers.

How can I have any respect for Todd Friel now, a man who promotes John MacArthur as if he were John Calvin himself?

How dare John MacArthur criticize John Piper for not accepting his cessationism, when Piper lives so modestly compared to him?

Perhaps MacArthur denies the reality of spiritual gifts because they are lacking in his own life.

If we believe in the Reformation principles of Solus Christus and Soli Deo gloria, we should be just as willing to point out institutional hypocrisy as Martin Luther was. It doesn't matter whether or not that church leader is on "our team."

Ecclesia semper reformanda!

Please keep in mind that my intent in this thread is not to say that I am a better person than John MacArthur. He just needs to repent of his hypocrisy and God will forgive him. I would feel sorry for him if he died without repenting.

Most of these guys don't get compensated for their pastoral roles and their income comes from things like book sales and events. I'm not saying I agree with the lifestyles and the church certainly plays a promotional role but I'll bet MacArthur doesn't draw a salary from his church.

durangodawood · Jul 17, 2021

bèlla said:
.....You're a cycling fan too? We're twinning hard! That sounds like a neat organization. I'll check them out.

~bella

Ha, yes we are! Cycling is my main outlet for physical and mental health, as well as plain old exploring and travel. Also did a lot of racing back in older times.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 17, 2021

Lifelong_sinner said:
Altruism is just as wrong as being greedy. The Bible speaks about how we, the flock, should treat our preachers. Altruism got shot down back in Luke 12.

Altruism is a human concept that does not take into the biblical account of the truth. While Altruism does seek self denial and in helping others, it is also said that it does not consider relationships.

Altruism - Wikipedia

We get the idea first of self denial and seeking to focus our life on loving God and others (instead of ourselves) from the Bible. Of course down is up and up is down in popular Christianity these days and following the instructions of our Lord is actually not good according to them. But we are told to follow the example of our Lord. Jesus lived a pretty selfless life.

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 18, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Suicide is self murder;
And John says that whoever hates is brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

So no. A believer who commits suicide is not saved.

Suicide is NOT the unforgivable sin, the only one that cannot be forgiven That is blasphemy, attributing to satan what is of God.

No one who commits suicide is thinking clearly; everything in man is hardwired for self-preservation.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 18, 2021

RestoreTheJoy said:
Suicide is NOT the unforgivable sin, the only one that cannot be forgiven That is blasphemy, attributing to satan what is of God.

No one who commits suicide is thinking clearly; everything in man is hardwired for self-preservation.

So a person who does not take their own life is not murdering themselves? How exactly do you explain away the plain meaning in 1 John 3:15?

As for a person not thinking correctly: Did something happen to them whereby they cannot help but do such a sin? We’re they ever normal? If so, then they were condemned by something else sinful before they lost their mind.

FireDragon76 · Jul 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
So a person who does not take their own life is not murdering themselves? How exactly do you explain away the plain meaning in 1 John 3:15?

As for a person not thinking correctly: Did something happen to them whereby they cannot help but do such a sin? We’re they ever normal? If so, then they were condemned by something else sinful before they lost their mind.

If the only motivation you have for doing right is fear of punishment, that in itself indicates a moral or ethical system that is highly flawed.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 19, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
If the only motivation you have for doing right is fear of punishment, that in itself indicates a moral or ethical system that is highly flawed.

Many people do things out of fear of punishment. To deny this is to deny reality and the Bible. For example: People do not break certain rules at their job out of fear that they may be fired and have no income. People do not excessively speed like crazy all the time regardless of posted speed limit signs out of fear that they would get a ticket by a police officer and even possibly going to court. People do not swim in the ocean with chum in it out of fear that they may be eaten by a shark. Many people (Including Christians) do not visit certain cities or countries because of the heavy violence against Christians and other people. They are in fear that they may lose their life unnecessarily or in being careless with one's life. Jesus says, “And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (See: Matthew 10:28). Jesus is the One in whom we are to fear. For He has power to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

FireDragon76 · Jul 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Many people do things out of fear of punishment. To deny this is to deny reality and the Bible. For example: People do not break certain rules at their job out of fear that they may be fired and have no income. People do not excessively speed like crazy all the time regardless of posted speed limit signs out of fear that they would get a ticket by a police officer and even possibly going to court. People do not swim in the ocean with chum in it out of fear that they may be eaten by a shark. Many people (Including Christians) do not visit certain cities or countries because of the heavy violence against Christians and other people. They are in fear that they may lose their life unnecessarily or in being careless with one's life. Jesus says, “And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” (See: Matthew 10:28). Jesus is the One in whom we are to fear. For He has power to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Charming. It sounds to me like naked authoritarianism rather than a morally compelling vision of the world.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 19, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
Charming. It sounds to me like naked authoritarianism rather than a morally compelling vision of the world.

This is not really dealing with the truth of Scripture I posted. What is your take on the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:28?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 19, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
Charming. It sounds to me like naked authoritarianism rather than a morally compelling vision of the world.

Also, do you deny that people obey the rules at their job out of fear in being fired?
Do you see this as unhealthy? What if they have children to provide for?

Hazelelponi · Jul 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Also, do you deny that people obey the rules at their job out of fear in being fired?
Do you see this as unhealthy? What if they have children to provide for?

I agree with @FireDragon76 here. I'm Christian but don't suppose I have much for your particular brand.

Most people follow rules out of respect for others. Generally, and you can ask a cop about this but laws don't make people think twice about doing wrong...

laws are simply for a more ordered society (among those who respect the law) and punishment for those who are unable to partake in that society in a healthy manner in order to protect others from them

(murderous individuals don't say oh, there's a law so I must not kill.. no. They murder regardless and their punishment keeps other innocent people safe)

The Bible says fear is the beginning of wisdom - not wisdom's end. If I obey God's law it's out of respect and love, and not for a "get out of hell free pass."

Anyone not finding themselves in obedience to God simply out of love and respect for God Himself, perhaps should rethink their faith... and whether it's basis is correct.

RestoreTheJoy · Jul 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
So a person who does not take their own life is not murdering themselves? How exactly do you explain away the plain meaning in 1 John 3:15?

As for a person not thinking correctly: Did something happen to them whereby they cannot help but do such a sin? We’re they ever normal? If so, then they were condemned by something else sinful before they lost their mind.

That verse is nonresponsive to this discussion. "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. "

This is talking about how to treat others. Someone who has lost his mind to the point that his drive to kill himself overpowers his incredibly strong innate instinct to self-preservation isn't responsible for what he does. That's mental illness/possession/ oppression....call it what you will and I'm sure it is case-dependent. But he is not a murderer.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 19, 2021

Reformed said:
You could have fooled me, Judge Parker.

Those in positions of authority will be judged according to a higher standard. (Luke 12:48, 1 Timothy 3:2)

I have not said anything negative about John MacArthur on my personal blog because I don't want to give the wrong impression to non-Christians, that there's no reason to follow God because all Christians are just hypocrites anyway.

Those within the church, however, have a responsibility to call out church leaders for their hypocrisy. John MacArthur has gotten rich off of the church, whiling pointing the finger at others like Joel Osteen. If he hadn't already pointed the finger at others, there wouldn't be guilt of hypocrisy.

rjs330 · Jul 19, 2021

It should be noted that McArthur is not a prosperity gospel preacher. He also does not preach against wealth that I have heard. In his messages against the prosperity gospel I have never heard his say it's not okay to have money.

The property gospel is about the message that God want you to be rich. That God's actual desire is for you to have enough faith to be rich. You just have to trust and believe.

And then you have those that preach that milking their followers who want to believe in that.

McArthur doesn't do that. What would be hypocritical would be for him to tell people they have to give away their wealth and live meagerly while he hoards wealth.

I don't think that's happening.

FireDragon76 · Jul 19, 2021

Hazelelponi said:
I agree with @FireDragon76 here. I'm Christian but don't suppose I have much for your particular brand.

Most people follow rules out of respect for others. Generally, and you can ask a cop about this but laws don't make people think twice about doing wrong...

laws are simply for a more ordered society (among those who respect the law) and punishment for those who are unable to partake in that society in a healthy manner in order to protect others from them

(murderous individuals don't say oh, there's a law so I must not kill.. no. They murder regardless and their punishment keeps other innocent people safe)

Likewise, very few get up in the morning and say to themselves "Who can I hurt today and get away with it?"

FireDragon76 · Jul 19, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Also, do you deny that people obey the rules at their job out of fear in being fired?

What you describe would amount to a terrible management style.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 20, 2021

John MacArthur, in the above video, accuses Joel Osteen of running a ponzi scheme, despite the fact that Osteen doesn't take a salary from his church, while MacArthur draws extravagant salaries from his ministries. MacArthur even goes as far as to say that Osteen hates God. Pot, meet kettle.

John MacArthur, please remove the plank from your eye

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